Re: Oracle and Non-Green Card Indians

David B Criswell (dcriswel_at_us.oracle.com) wrote:

: I probably shouldn't post this, having invoked Godwin's Law twice,
: but here it is anyway.
: smith_at_netcom.com ( David Smith at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo) writes:
 

: >David B Criswell (dcriswel_at_us.oracle.com) wrote:
: >
: >: Disclaimer: Yes, I work for you know who. If I were their spokesman,
: >: I'd probably make it through this post without using the word
: >: "pinhead". I'm not.
 

: >: smith_at_netcom.com ( David Smith at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo) writes:
 

: >: >Oracle Corporation, currently hires enourmous amounts of Indians
: >: [...]
: >: some racist ranting deleted
: >: [Btw, why do none of the ranters have spelling checkers?]
: >
: >To give you smug pinheads something to twit about.
 

: Thanks for clearing this up.

Your welcome Criswell.

: [some stooooopidity deleted]
: >: >line, but Oracle knows that a desperate immigrant fleeing his
: >: >impoverished country, will work for less, and they will save a few pennies.
 

: >: Um, that's "recent immigrants from an English speaking former British
: >: colony, who've spent at least four years in an english-speaking university".
: >: I don't see what's wrong with that.
: >
: >Sorry, Cris, they are pre-Green card folks that your corporation is soaking
: >up by the tanker full.
 

: I haven't seen "tankers full" of Indians, and I've not been in a position
: where it is necessary for me to check on their immigration records.

Sorry, I may have used a figure of speech, that gave you some wiggle room. Call up Tech Support, and punch, say Pre-compiler support. That might put you in touch with a few of them. If I can remember it, I will supply you with the name of the contract agency that brings them over here and "puts them on the bench" until Oracle hires them.

: >What's wrong with that? Don't ask me, just ask all the
: >underemployed computer science grads that you went to school with.
 

: We don't owe "the underemployed computer science grads" anything.

Legally, you would be right, but morally, Oracle Corporation, and it's cocksure employees, are all wrong. America is losing jobs to the third world left and right, and then the jobs that we are supposed to be keeping, the "information or communications" jobs, are being given to the third world non-Green card immigrants. Good show David Criswell, Larry Elllison, and the rest of the bunch at Oracle Corporation, who figured out how to save a penny by a loophole in the immigration laws! What a boon you guys are to the stockholders. Screw those dumb "chucklehead" American Computer Science grads. What really counts is the get profits high and squash Sybase any way you can!!

: > We don't
: >owe Americans anything do we?
 

: No, we don't. That "do we" seems to indicate that you think this is a
: rhetorical question. It isn't.

I look forward to the day when you can start bringing in Pakistanis for a little less than you get the Indians. When the Bangladeshi's get their free Oracle licenses at their universities, you will really have an untouchably low payroll! Money money money!!!

: >Let's open up the floodgates completely, and
: >then Oracle can hire so many Chinese and Indians, that David Criswell can
: >become lead sanitary engineer.
 

: Quaking in my boots, I tell ya.

Wow, not afraid to take a leadership role, at all!!

: >: >Sadly, there is such a surplus of Americans looking for Computer Science type
: >: >jobs, that a 2 or 3 line classified ad looking for a programmer or
: >: >network person etc., will draw 200 resumes in a week,
 

: >: Yes, you're right. A classified ad would draw 200 resumes from incompetant
: >: chuckleheads that aren't worth my time to read. That is why most managers
: >: at Oracle that I know don't advertise open positions that way.
: >
: >Well, I guess that has it Cris, Indians are superior to Americans.
 

: I see nothing in the paragraph above to indicate any belief of that sort.
: Most of our positions are either filled by agencies or personal references.

Yeah, nothing denigrating about "200 resumes from incompetent chuckleheads" towards American job seekers. David "When I use the term chucklehead, I don't mean it in a bad way" Criswell

: >Gee, isn't
: >it funny how the racism of you American haters always comes out.
 

: There's way too much irony in your diet.

And too much curry in yours.

: >By the way,
: >do you think the fact that they get hundreds of pre-Green card Indians who
: >work for less than the going wage,
 

: Again, the fact that they don't work for less than the going wage
: sort of ruins this line of argumentation. The ones that I know seem
: to have a lifestyle indicating that they have a similar income to mine.

Yeah, that's proof all right. They seem to have a similar lifestyle to mine, sure convinces me that these Indians that are non-citizens without a green card, work for the same as Americans. I guess the reason you hire them then, has to be your belief in the racial superiority of Indians versus the other races currently here in America, who would work for the same wages as the Indians that you funnel over here.

: >and have the threat of deportation
: >hanging over their heads,
 

: Again, the fact that they don't have the threat ... etc etc like above.

They have no green card and are not legal citizens, and are only here on some sad REPUBLICAN type law, designed to let an employer save a few bucks on a foreigner, at the expense of an American who the employer "doesn't owe a job too" as your put it. David "Why have any immigration quotas at all "Criswell

aka David "I am sure that there is no negative impact on U.S. employment from companies like mine that hire tons of foreigners, since I have a job" Criswell

: >making them very pliable employees, has anything to
: >do with the fact that they don't want Americans, or is it all about a racial
: >bias?
 

: Of course not. There are lots of Americans who work here as well.

Lots of Americans, sure, somebody has to market the darn thing hard to corporate America, since you charge twice as much as Sybase, and seem to delite in a obtuse pricing scheme".

: >: >and a large amount of
: >: >those being from Computer Science graduates who have been unable to land
: >: >their first job.
 

: >: Oracle does not owe you a job because you cannot find one. Oracle does
: >: recruit at Cal Poly, so if you hurry on down to the career center you
: >: might catch the recruiter. They hire very large amounts of just-out-of
: >: school folks - the average age here was 24 last I checked.
: >
: >Oracle, can legally hire as many thousands
 

: "many thousands"?
 

: >of non-resident Indians as it
: >wants Criswell, but you are on unknown turf here, this is all about moral
: >values dude.
 

: This is not about "moral values". It's about hiring the most qualified
: person for the job. The only "moral value" at work here is to get
: products to our customers.

Well, we're back to the racial superiority thing again, and the fact that Indians are more "qualified" (I guess you and your Oracle buddies who wrote to me in private email mean that to be "intelligent") than Americans.

: >Why would I want to work with a huge cultural barrier between
: >me and my co-workers, with the exception of some smug American hating Americans
: >like yourself?
 

: What cultural barriers do you speak of? And indeed, if Oracle has
: this "problem", why do you want to work here?

You will your great love of super hot, super spicy food, and disdain for Americans, have been able to surmount the cultural barriers I am sure. When have I said I wanted to work for Oracle Corporation.

: > Plus, it would be so monotonous going to all those going
: >away luncheons, as each Indian gets his green card after a while, and then
: >exits stage left, doubletime!
 

: This completely contradicts any experience of mine, and is a complete
: figment of your imagination.

Sorry, David, but I have a little insight inside your beloved institution, and not only of the huge K-1 is it or H-1, hiring of just off the boat Indians, but also of the high turnover. In this very same post, leftover from when you originally said it, is the statement "the average age here is 24". That, my dear "we don't owe Americans a job" friend, is tough to achieve for a company over 15 years old, without a little more than a tiny, teency weency , itsy bitsy employee turnover. Face it, the market in the bay area is flooded with ex-Oracle people.

: >: BTW, those of us who are qualified have job offers up the wazoo,
: >: unsolicited, so I know there's jobs out there. There's tons of
: >: positions (inappropriately) posted here in this newsgroup, as well.
: >
: >Right, tons of positions. Ever been to a job fair, and seen the deperate
: >techical college graduates, swarming the booths for a few positions.
 

: IMHO, job fairs are going to bomb a hiring manager with worthless
: resumes much as a classified ad would, so I doubt we hire much that way.
: (I could be wrong here - that's just a guess.)

I was not making any kind of a justification for job fairs, just showing that the deperate hordes at these affairs, show the TREMENDOUS SURPLUS of technical people in this country, only EXASERPATED BADLY by the Oracle Corporation and its practice of bringing in Indians that were brought over or should I say around the immigration laws for the express purpose of saving Oracle a few pennies in payroll costs.
:
: >Or do you just hang out in those green towers in Redwood Shores playing
: >find the curry sauce?
 

: I rather like curry. Is this one of those "cultural barriers" you
: were talking about earlier?

Absolutely, I refuse to eat with a pitcher of water in front of me at every meal.

: >: >Is is morally right to allow Oracle to save a few bucks
: >: >while Americans with Computer Science degrees are unemployed.
 

: >: I'd be interested in seeing the data that Oracle's entry-level salaries
: >: are below the industry average. My sources are highly biased, but
: >: they seem to indicate that the opposite is true and personal experience
: >: backs that up.
: >
: >We are talking about what they pay all the non-green card Indians. Not the
: >sanctimonious David Criswell types.
 

: You miss the point. I've been working with some of them for many
: years and the ones I know well have a similar lifestyle to mine.
: And if what you say is correct, all those Indians would be dragging
: down the entry level wage average. You don't have any evidence of
: that, so you spew utter fabrication.

Prove that the entry-level wage is what it would be, were Oracle not bringing over tons of Indians, using a loophole in the immigration law. Are you really willing to say they are doing it purely on a rascist basis?

: BTW, I'm not entry-level, so my income is not useful in this comparison.
 

: >: >Would the
: >: >average American Computer Science graduate really be unable to man Oracle's
: >: >tech support phones?
 

: Would the average American CS grad be fluent in several languages?
: Other American CS grads seem to get hired there all the time.

Not talking about 100% hiring of non-resident, non-citizen, non-Green card , just off the boat Indians, just LOTS of them.

: >: I'd rather hire an above average Computer Science graduate than an average
: >: one. If you're average, you don't stand a snowball's chance in hell here.
: >: If you're _way_ above average, you can make the team and who gives a toss
: >: what color your skin is.
: >
: >Just the accounts I suppose, who see green when they find desperate hordes
: >of non-residents willing to work for less.
 

: They aren't working for less. Sort of puts a hole in your argument.

Sort of haven't proven that have you. "They seem to have a lifestyle similar to my own" isn't proof that Oracle pays non-resident, non-Green card, non-citizen Indians, the same as Americans. In fact, it sounds quite depserate, and reduces the reason for hiring them to one of racial superiority.

: >: Point is, if I'm hiring someone I'm counting on them to snatch my butt
: >: out of the fire now and then. I expect to do the same. I want someone I
: >: can count on, not some pinhead who mewls plaintively about white males
: >: being an oppressed class.
: >
: >I am sure your butt is in the fire quite a bit, and it does take 2 non-green
: >card Indians for the price of one American, to save it, continuously. I guess
: >not many self-hating Americans, to fill your shoes so willingly up their
: >with the newly non-immigrated Indians.
 

: Now you're saying that the Indians only get paid 1/2 what I do?
: The INS would be interested if you were basing this scenario
: on facts. But you aren't.

The INS is the same organization that waves to the Mexicans as they come in illegally. I am sure Oracle has their full blessing hiring all those Indians via that loophole in the immigration law. Since you haven't seen how much they make, by your own admission, you can't comment on how much they make. Looking at what they have for lunch, just won't cut it.

: >: >Would they be worse at it? Are the Indians racially
: >: >superior?
 

: >: Don't know, but the ones I've worked with have been pretty damned
: >: impressive, and I'm _not_ an easy judge.
: >
: >Yeah, like most smug, self-absorbed, cocky know-it-alls, you probably have
: >to have it kissed on both cheeks, in a manner only desperate non-resident
: >are willing to do.
 

: Wrong again. No amount of ass-kissing is likely to help me get
: product out, and therefore it does not impress me.

Are you the guy working on Oracle Financials for Forms 3.0?

: >: >I ask you Oracle advocates of the world.
 

: >: David Duke is looking for a speechwriter - that's more your speed. Here,
: >: you have demonstrated an inability to work with some of my team.
: >
: >Dave "If you are not for non-resident, pre-Green card, Indians coming over
: >here and taking tons of nice desirable comoputer science jobs at below
: >market wages, then you must be Hitler" Criswell
 

: They aren't working for below market wages. While I admit the Duke
: reference was carrying things a bit far, this is still racist
: pandering.

The only rascist statements I have seen are yours defending Oracle Corporation foreigners, while Americans go jobless, because you feel the Indians are more "qualified", than the U.S. graduates, and you hire them by the droves, even though you feel Oracle pays them just what they would have offerend the unemployed U.S. graduates.

: >aka David "If I get smug enough and extreme enough, maybe people will forget
: >about all the tons of Indians taking jobs from Americans, thanks to the
: >Oracle Corporation hiring practices" Criswell
 

: Why would I be trying to make people forget anything? Which Indians
: are taking jobs from Americans? Which jobs are for Americans?

Again, it is perfectly legal for American corporations like Oracle, to actively hire foriegn nationals, while Americans go jobless, or are underemployed. Perfectly legal, and now with the Republicans in power, you will probably be able to use Air Force One to fly the Indians over here. I'll be Larry Ellison even gets a medal for all the money he saved Oracle stockholders by hiring the foreigners, all the while avoiding the Americans "chuckleheads (as you put it)".

: >: Dave Criswell
 

: >: P.S. You've also offended many of the Senior VP's and managers who
: >: might hire you.
: >
: >Well, then have the ones I haven't offended give me a call.
 

: If you can't learn to work with Indians, or have particular qualms
: about immigrants, you won't like it here. I don't believe there
: are any groups here which are all "American".

I don't believe so either, which is sad. If only German corporations would fly Americans over to Germany to work at "the same wages as Germans".

: The only thing that you've put out in the way of qualifications
: here is that you are an American. This will not impress anyone.

I am not applying for work at Oracle corporation. Just pointing out their hiring practices. Unfortunately, the 60 minutes expose on this practice, only pointed out Hewlett Packard corporation. I hope that ultimately, Oracle will move its headquarters directly to India, so that the workers will only take jobs from Amerians, and not also clog our freeways, and add to our polution and resource depletion.

: >: P.P.S. Don't even think of applying at Gupta.
: >
: >Do they prefer to hire around the immigration laws like your employer,
: >Oracle Corporation?
 

: Do tell where they are "working around" anything. The comment was
: aimed on getting you to look hard at the name of the company, and
: realize who it is that's providing jobs for Americans.

The name is Oracle Corporation. Some jobs, especially in marketing and sales, go to Americans, and many, especially in tech support, go to Indians. The immigration laws stipulate each country can send 20,000 people to America per year. The "family repatriation" clause, lets this number soar much hirer (once the son is in mom, dad etc. all get in). This gives an ultimate number of around 850,000 legal immigrants to the U.S. This number is still not enough for companies like Oracle Corporation, who hunger for cheap desperate foreign workers, so they and their bretren talked the INS into adding more immigrants on the basis that they have "critical skills that cannot be met internally". Obviously, as I previously stated, the hordes of desperate unemployed and underemployed technical grads at tech job fairs, proves the fallacy of that, but goverment palms are greased with some of the money saved by hiring the cheap foreign labor, and the H-1 flood is allowed. And after all, those American corporations don't owe Americans a job anyway, They can always try and get a job in India!

: ObSheesh: Sheesh!
 

: Dave Criswell
Received on Tue Nov 15 1994 - 11:52:59 CET