Re: Oracle and Non-Green Card Indians

I probably shouldn't post this, having invoked Godwin's Law twice, but here it is anyway.
smith_at_netcom.com ( David Smith at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo) writes:

>David B Criswell (dcriswel_at_us.oracle.com) wrote:
>
>: Disclaimer: Yes, I work for you know who. If I were their spokesman,
>: I'd probably make it through this post without using the word
>: "pinhead". I'm not.
 

>: smith_at_netcom.com ( David Smith at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo) writes:
 

>: >Oracle Corporation, currently hires enourmous amounts of Indians
>: [...]
>: some racist ranting deleted
>: [Btw, why do none of the ranters have spelling checkers?]
>
>To give you smug pinheads something to twit about.

Thanks for clearing this up.

[some stooooopidity deleted]
>: >line, but Oracle knows that a desperate immigrant fleeing his
>: >impoverished country, will work for less, and they will save a few pennies.
 

>: Um, that's "recent immigrants from an English speaking former British
>: colony, who've spent at least four years in an english-speaking university".
>: I don't see what's wrong with that.
>
>Sorry, Cris, they are pre-Green card folks that your corporation is soaking
>up by the tanker full.

I haven't seen "tankers full" of Indians, and I've not been in a position where it is necessary for me to check on their immigration records.

>What's wrong with that? Don't ask me, just ask all the
>underemployed computer science grads that you went to school with.

We don't owe "the underemployed computer science grads" anything.

> We don't
>owe Americans anything do we?

No, we don't. That "do we" seems to indicate that you think this is a rhetorical question. It isn't.

>Let's open up the floodgates completely, and
>then Oracle can hire so many Chinese and Indians, that David Criswell can
>become lead sanitary engineer.

Quaking in my boots, I tell ya.

>: >Sadly, there is such a surplus of Americans looking for Computer Science type
>: >jobs, that a 2 or 3 line classified ad looking for a programmer or
>: >network person etc., will draw 200 resumes in a week,
 

>: Yes, you're right. A classified ad would draw 200 resumes from incompetant
>: chuckleheads that aren't worth my time to read. That is why most managers
>: at Oracle that I know don't advertise open positions that way.
>
>Well, I guess that has it Cris, Indians are superior to Americans.

I see nothing in the paragraph above to indicate any belief of that sort. Most of our positions are either filled by agencies or personal references.

>Gee, isn't
>it funny how the racism of you American haters always comes out.

There's way too much irony in your diet.

>By the way,
>do you think the fact that they get hundreds of pre-Green card Indians who
>work for less than the going wage,

Again, the fact that they don't work for less than the going wage sort of ruins this line of argumentation. The ones that I know seem to have a lifestyle indicating that they have a similar income to mine.

>and have the threat of deportation
>hanging over their heads,

Again, the fact that they don't have the threat ... etc etc like above.

>making them very pliable employees, has anything to
>do with the fact that they don't want Americans, or is it all about a racial
>bias?

Of course not. There are lots of Americans who work here as well.

>: >and a large amount of
>: >those being from Computer Science graduates who have been unable to land
>: >their first job.
 

>: Oracle does not owe you a job because you cannot find one. Oracle does
>: recruit at Cal Poly, so if you hurry on down to the career center you
>: might catch the recruiter. They hire very large amounts of just-out-of
>: school folks - the average age here was 24 last I checked.
>
>Oracle, can legally hire as many thousands

"many thousands"?

>of non-resident Indians as it
>wants Criswell, but you are on unknown turf here, this is all about moral
>values dude.

This is not about "moral values". It's about hiring the most qualified person for the job. The only "moral value" at work here is to get products to our customers.

>Why would I want to work with a huge cultural barrier between
>me and my co-workers, with the exception of some smug American hating Americans
>like yourself?

What cultural barriers do you speak of? And indeed, if Oracle has this "problem", why do you want to work here?

> Plus, it would be so monotonous going to all those going
>away luncheons, as each Indian gets his green card after a while, and then
>exits stage left, doubletime!

This completely contradicts any experience of mine, and is a complete figment of your imagination.

>: BTW, those of us who are qualified have job offers up the wazoo,
>: unsolicited, so I know there's jobs out there. There's tons of
>: positions (inappropriately) posted here in this newsgroup, as well.
>
>Right, tons of positions. Ever been to a job fair, and seen the deperate
>techical college graduates, swarming the booths for a few positions.

IMHO, job fairs are going to bomb a hiring manager with worthless resumes much as a classified ad would, so I doubt we hire much that way. (I could be wrong here - that's just a guess.)  

>Or do you just hang out in those green towers in Redwood Shores playing
>find the curry sauce?

I rather like curry. Is this one of those "cultural barriers" you were talking about earlier?

>: >Is is morally right to allow Oracle to save a few bucks
>: >while Americans with Computer Science degrees are unemployed.
 

>: I'd be interested in seeing the data that Oracle's entry-level salaries
>: are below the industry average. My sources are highly biased, but
>: they seem to indicate that the opposite is true and personal experience
>: backs that up.
>
>We are talking about what they pay all the non-green card Indians. Not the
>sanctimonious David Criswell types.

You miss the point. I've been working with some of them for many years and the ones I know well have a similar lifestyle to mine. And if what you say is correct, all those Indians would be dragging down the entry level wage average. You don't have any evidence of that, so you spew utter fabrication.

BTW, I'm not entry-level, so my income is not useful in this comparison.

>: >Would the
>: >average American Computer Science graduate really be unable to man Oracle's
>: >tech support phones?

Would the average American CS grad be fluent in several languages? Other American CS grads seem to get hired there all the time.

>: I'd rather hire an above average Computer Science graduate than an average
>: one. If you're average, you don't stand a snowball's chance in hell here.
>: If you're _way_ above average, you can make the team and who gives a toss
>: what color your skin is.
>
>Just the accounts I suppose, who see green when they find desperate hordes
>of non-residents willing to work for less.

They aren't working for less. Sort of puts a hole in your argument.

>: Point is, if I'm hiring someone I'm counting on them to snatch my butt
>: out of the fire now and then. I expect to do the same. I want someone I
>: can count on, not some pinhead who mewls plaintively about white males
>: being an oppressed class.
>
>I am sure your butt is in the fire quite a bit, and it does take 2 non-green
>card Indians for the price of one American, to save it, continuously. I guess
>not many self-hating Americans, to fill your shoes so willingly up their
>with the newly non-immigrated Indians.

Now you're saying that the Indians only get paid 1/2 what I do? The INS would be interested if you were basing this scenario on facts. But you aren't.

>: >Would they be worse at it? Are the Indians racially
>: >superior?
 

>: Don't know, but the ones I've worked with have been pretty damned
>: impressive, and I'm _not_ an easy judge.
>
>Yeah, like most smug, self-absorbed, cocky know-it-alls, you probably have
>to have it kissed on both cheeks, in a manner only desperate non-resident
>are willing to do.

Wrong again. No amount of ass-kissing is likely to help me get product out, and therefore it does not impress me.

>: >I ask you Oracle advocates of the world.
 

>: David Duke is looking for a speechwriter - that's more your speed. Here,
>: you have demonstrated an inability to work with some of my team.
>
>Dave "If you are not for non-resident, pre-Green card, Indians coming over
>here and taking tons of nice desirable comoputer science jobs at below
>market wages, then you must be Hitler" Criswell

They aren't working for below market wages. While I admit the Duke reference was carrying things a bit far, this is still racist pandering.

>aka David "If I get smug enough and extreme enough, maybe people will forget
>about all the tons of Indians taking jobs from Americans, thanks to the
>Oracle Corporation hiring practices" Criswell

Why would I be trying to make people forget anything? Which Indians are taking jobs from Americans? Which jobs are for Americans?

>: Dave Criswell
 

>: P.S. You've also offended many of the Senior VP's and managers who
>: might hire you.
>
>Well, then have the ones I haven't offended give me a call.

If you can't learn to work with Indians, or have particular qualms about immigrants, you won't like it here. I don't believe there are any groups here which are all "American".

The only thing that you've put out in the way of qualifications here is that you are an American. This will not impress anyone.

>: P.P.S. Don't even think of applying at Gupta.
>
>Do they prefer to hire around the immigration laws like your employer,
>Oracle Corporation?

Do tell where they are "working around" anything. The comment was aimed on getting you to look hard at the name of the company, and realize who it is that's providing jobs for Americans.

ObSheesh: Sheesh!

Dave Criswell Received on Tue Nov 15 1994 - 05:49:38 CET