Re: An object-oriented network DBMS from relational DBMS point of view
Date: 14 Mar 2007 18:18:00 -0700
Message-ID: <1173921480.946628.245600_at_l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>
On Mar 14, 4:44 am, "Dmitry Shuklin" <shuk..._at_bk.ru> wrote:
> On 13 อมา, 20:42, "Marshall" <marshall.spi..._at_gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > This is categorically false. There are no problems that can
> > be solved with pointers that cannot be solved without them.
>
> This is categorically true.
> All today successfull programming languages have pointers or
> references.
> Many of today successfull RDB projects have surrogate identifiers (=
> pointers emulation)
> > (Unless you are referring to very low level programming such
> > as device drivers. And really, it's not even strictly true there.)
>
> Ok, You are right here, I am started programming from writing drivers
> more than 15 year ago)))
> Let consider writing drivers as abstract task. You say that it will be
> almost impossible to write driver without references or pointers
> support. Is it?
Impossible is a strong word. But probably we don't even need
it--if I had to write a device driver, I'd probably use C, and use
pointers to boot. Right tool for the job and all. But that doesn't
mean I think pointers are a good technique, or that C is a high
level language. On the contrary, C is quite a low level language.
Generally it is a good idea to work at as high a level as one
can, which directly leads us to the conclusion that C should
be avoided wherever possible.
> From other hand it will be easy to do with pointers. Ok? So system
> with pointers support is full and system without them is not full ;)
Again, a word like "full" isn't very helpful without some more
specific context. I've already pointed out that pointers are
unnecessary for complete computational models.
If the topic at hand is writing device drivers, then I have
nothing much to say. However device drivers are a
very specific niche within software development, and again,
very low level. We should not measure software development
by the standards of device drivers. In fact, it should be a
strong goal to make as much of software development as
unlike device drivers as possible.
> > > I don't see any complexity wich was appeared with pointers. But I see
> > > it when pointers gone.
>
> > Consider the plight of the C programmer, who cannot statically
> > tell the type of the thing pointed to by a pointer, nor whether
> > there is aliasing, nor whether it even points to actual memory.
>
> The world not stay in one point. Do you know about managed pointers?
> C# or Java for example.
> > If you don't see any complexity with pointers, you need to learn
> > more about pointers.
>
> Are you sure that you don't need learn more about modern
> programming? ;)
> > Well, of course they can "do the same". You can do the
> > same with just cons cells and the lambda calculus. Or
> > just with Turing machines. Whether two systems can
> > do the same thing or not is generally a trivial question,
> > since pretty much all systems are computationally
> > equivalent.
>
> It is very interesting question. To solve it we should remember about
> Turchin and Meta-System Transition
> When one MT emulating another MT the Meta-System Transition is
> appearing. I say that I can do on my network DBMS all which RDMBS can
> without this meta-system transition. But vice-versa is not true. RDBMS
> can do all what can do my db only after MST.
I am unfamiliar with Turchin's work. I am more familiar with
Church and Turing and those fellows. I again point out that
the lambda calculus is as computationally powerful as it is
possible to be, and does not contain pointers. Turing
machines likewise.
> > comparison of two types of systems but you apparently
> > don't know very much about either one!
>
> Ha Ha Ha,
You laugh, but you do nothing to dispel my points.
Marshall Received on Thu Mar 15 2007 - 02:18:00 CET