Re: Navigation question
From: Bob Badour <bbadour_at_pei.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 15:46:21 GMT
Message-ID: <hnYEh.1934$PV3.27824_at_ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca>
>
> of
>
>
> expertise,
>
>
> of
>
>
> describes
>
>
> so
>
>
> these
>
>
> referring
>
>
> in
>
>
> not
>
>
> protocol"?
>
>
>
>
>
> are
>
>
> machine-readable
>
>
> application
>
>
> Again,
>
>
> that
>
>
> It clarified a little, but I'm still confused. You can in fact divide
> things into "layers" without regard to protocols, and the phrase
> "application layer" means something to me. However, your reference to the
> OSI layers suggested a common interpretation (between you and me) of the
> term "application layer", and you are using the phrase to convey something
> a little different than the OSI people intended.
>
> Let's distinguish between "database data" and "application data". Data can
> exist in a database, in "working storage" (to use an old COBOL term), and
> be exchange across the interface.
>
> Whether you navigate in working storage or not is entirely beside the point
> that Codd, Date, and JOG have made, if I understand that point at all. The
> point about user navigation interfering with both independence and
> optimization within the DBMS is about the navigation of database data.
>
> And, just in case, "database data" does *not* refer to copies of database
> data in working storage.
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 15:46:21 GMT
Message-ID: <hnYEh.1934$PV3.27824_at_ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca>
Walt wrote:
> "dawn" <dawnwolthuis_at_gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1172534823.070193.104950_at_k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>>Walt wrote: >> >>>"dawn" <dawnwolthuis_at_gmail.com> wrote in message >>>news:1172505529.681070.131640_at_q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... >>> >>>>On Feb 26, 8:28 am, "Walt" <wami..._at_verizon.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>>"dawn" <dawnwolth..._at_gmail.com> wrote in message >>>>> >>>>>news:1172444333.974143.227280_at_q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>On Feb 23, 10:10 am, "Walt" <wami..._at_verizon.net> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>"dawn" <dawnwolth..._at_gmail.com> wrote in message >>>>>>><snip> My questions are regarding >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>layer 7, where "logical navigation" of a database might take >>> >>>place. >>> >>>>>>>>Does that work for you? --dawn >>>>> >>>>>>>what do you mean by "OSI layers?" Are you talking about layers
>
> of
>
>>>>>>>protocols? >>>>> >>>>>>First, I'll grant that the OSI layers are not in my area of
>
> expertise,
>
>>>>>>so I might very well have this wrong. I am talking specifically
>
> of
>
>>>>>>the 7 layers (of protocols) identified as the "OSI layers." >>>>> >>>>>Could you list the layers, and give a link to a web page that
>
> describes
>
>>>>>them? >>>> >>>>I just did a google and I'm not sure whether you had trouble finding a >>>>link or if this is a test to see which link I would choose. We can >>>>start with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSI_model >>> >>>I know how to google. I wanted to see what page you were reading from,
>
> so
>
>>>that we could read from the same page. >> >>Perhaps I should have been reading from a page. >> >> >>>The page you pointed me to is a good starting place. So you are talking >>>about protocols. >> >>No, I'm talking about layers and not specifically about the interfaces >>between them (protocols). I'm talking about that which takes place >>within the application layer, using the OSI terminology only to try to >>get the focus within the app layer, rather than below it. If the use >>of the OSI layers was distracting, then simply zero in on application >>software development, including all software (code, metadata, >>database, DBMS specs of any kind) that run or serve as input to >>executables running on top of an OS, for example. >> >> >>>>If I had been quizzed, I would have gotten the top, the bottom, and a >>>>few others by name, but I have never studied nor memorized these >>>>layers. I only referred to them in order to get the focus of the >>>>question on the application layer. >>>> >>>> >>>>>>Given >>>>>>these 7 layers, I am not then talking about taking any one of
>
> these
>
>>>>>>layers and further subdividiing it by protocol, but simply
>
> referring
>
>>>>>>to it so that it is clear (that obviously did not work) that I'm >>>>>>talking about the Application Layer. >>>>> >>>>>>> If so, it seems to me that application to >>>>>>>database theory is limited to the areas where data is exchanged
>
> in
>
>>>some >>> >>>>>sort >>>>> >>>>>>>of formal protocol. >>>>> >>>>>>Surely not. >>> >>>I don't understand the above. "Surely not" what? Do you mean "Surely
>
> not
>
>>>limited to areas where data is exchanged in some sort of formal
>
> protocol"?
>
>>>If that's the case, why did you refer to "the OSI Layers"? >> >>I hope I explained that satisfactorily. Since it is getting in the >>way, rather than helping, ignore OSI and focus on application software >>and the development thereof, including specification for and >>instructions to a DBMS, for example.
>
>
>
>>> Database theory is highly relevant to conceptual >>> >>>>>>modeling, outside of this list of 7 layers, as well as to the >>>>>>interface between developer and DBMS, for example. While there
>
> are
>
>>>>>>surely some here who have an interest in data in some
>
> machine-readable
>
>>>>>>format that might not be all that useful for human eyes or
>
> application
>
>>>>>>programmers, I'm interested in Layer 7, the Application Layer.
>
> Again,
>
>>>>>>I am not bringing this in so that we can discuss protocols within
>
> that
>
>>>>>>layer, simply so that it is clear I'm not talking about "physical >>>>>>navigation." >>> >>>If you are not talking about protocols, then why are the OSI layers >>>relevant to your discussion? >>> >>>I'm terribly confused by what you have written. >>> >>> >>>>strictly DBMS navigation). BTW, I didn't mention Pascal. I included >>>>JOG as the third. >>>> >>> >>>Noted. >>> >>> >>>>>Any navigation a programmer >>>>>does entirely within the application is not relevant to the comments >>> >>>Cdd, >>> >>>>>Date, and Pascal have made regarding database data. >>>> >>>>Really? I thought they were opposed to "database navigation" in >>>>general, whether the application is navigating its way through the >>>>data or the DBMS is, or some combination. Hmmm. Perhaps one >>>>difficulty with the terms is that I consider DBMS specifications >>>>related to any application suite to be "part of" that application >>>>suite. >>>> >> >>Did this clarify at all? Thanks. --dawn
>
> It clarified a little, but I'm still confused. You can in fact divide
> things into "layers" without regard to protocols, and the phrase
> "application layer" means something to me. However, your reference to the
> OSI layers suggested a common interpretation (between you and me) of the
> term "application layer", and you are using the phrase to convey something
> a little different than the OSI people intended.
>
> Let's distinguish between "database data" and "application data". Data can
> exist in a database, in "working storage" (to use an old COBOL term), and
> be exchange across the interface.
>
> Whether you navigate in working storage or not is entirely beside the point
> that Codd, Date, and JOG have made, if I understand that point at all. The
> point about user navigation interfering with both independence and
> optimization within the DBMS is about the navigation of database data.
>
> And, just in case, "database data" does *not* refer to copies of database
> data in working storage.
Declarative techniques benefit application development too. Received on Tue Feb 27 2007 - 16:46:21 CET