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Re: Career Advise - Database Management

From: Mark C. Stock <mcstockX_at_Xenquery>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 12:25:15 -0400
Message-ID: <>

"DA Morgan" <> wrote in message news:1126798700.355488_at_yasure...
> Mark C. Stock wrote:

>> "DA Morgan" <> wrote in message 
>> news:1126755534.274708_at_yasure...
>>>Mark C. Stock wrote:
>>>>corporate instructor lead training goes for from $420 up to $550 or more 
>>>>seat per day these days -- so at the low-end, $6k would covers about 14 
>>>>at 'standard' rates -- some 'boot camp' courses are listed for $9,495 
>>>>for 14
>>>>days, including meals and accomodations
>>>On the basis that no one is going to apply for a Visa and move to the
>>>US because I post this I will speak from experience.
>>>University of Washington Oracle program: 9 months: Less than $2,000.
>>>Puget Sound Oracle Users Group: all day hands-on classes with each
>>>student getting their own server: ~$450/day.
>>>$6,000 for an OCP course is outrageous.
>>>Daniel A. Morgan
>>>(replace x with u to respond)
>> so PSOUG's class verifies the going daily rate... but presumably the 
>> content and quality is at the high end of the spectrum

> Maximum class size 8 students.
> Each student with their own server is expensive.
> The user group only runs one or two classes a month.
> So the entire cost of hardware, software, insurance, facilities, etc.
> must be paid for from only those few students.
> It is not intended to be a for-profit venture: And it isn't. ;-)
>> how many classroom hours for the UW program?

> 90
>> likely the per hour cost will be less than ILT, but for a true comparison 
>> of options, you've got to compare course content.

> Here's the content in very rough form for the first quarter (30 hours)
> 1. Concepts and architecture
> 2. Logical and physical constructs
> 3. Tables (all of them including GTT, External, IOT, Partitioning)
> 4. Clusters
> 5. Constraints (all of them including DEFERRABLE and the EXCEPTIONS INTO
> clause)
> 6. Views (including view constraints)
> 7. Materialized Views
> 8. DML (including joins, string, numeric, date, and some analytic
> functions)
> 9. Transaction model

> And beginning this year ... in 10g Release 2 so we will be covering the
> new "basics" such as COMMIT WRITE BATCH, COMMIT WRITE WAIT, etc.
>> would 4.44444 PSOUG classes provide the same benefit as the UW program? 
>> more? good. less? then $450 may be outrageous as well.

> Wholly different subjects. The user group only teaches subjects not
> taught anywhere else. The RAC class, for example, starts with formatted
> hard disks and no network. Students build the network, install the O/S,
> install the clusterware, then the Oracle binaries, etc. Even Oracle
> itself doesn't deal with the o/s, storage, and network issues. Other
> topics the user group classes cover are Grid Control, DataGuard,
> Advanced Queueing, Warehouse Builder, etc. Just a completely different
> type of class as they are all hand's-on and very real-world.
>> how many days of (quality) 'corporate' ILT training do you think would be 
>> needed to cover the content that the UW program covers?

> I'm not sure how I could estimate that. The UW program is 90 hours of
> pure lecture. Student survey indicate that the students, doing their
> homework, average 3 to 5 hours for every hour of classroom instruction.
> Keep in mind the students at the U are not 20 year olds whose education
> is being paid for by Mom and Dad. They are adult professionals, most
> with CS degrees just learning a new skill. They are, to say the least,
> very highly self-motivated. That 270 to 450 hours of homework ... is
> self assigned. I never actually assign homework. I don't think your
> typical corporate employee has what it takes to do this.
>> If the $6k program covers the same material, with the same educational 
>> benefit, as the UW program, then the $4k premium for expediency is pretty 
>> steep. If it covers less, that's even worse. But if it covers more, then 
>> the ROI comparison changes, no?
>> ++ mcs

> Far far less for $6000 by definition. Simply put the $6000 program's
> goal is that you can score 60% on a multiple choice test. The goal
> from the university program is that, or similar companies,
> will hire you (27 former students have been at Amazon and another is
> being interviewed this week). A very substantially higher bar.

> Note: For those wondering ... university classes such as mine are not
> financially subsidized by government/tax payers. They must be
> financially self-supporting. And to re-emphasize this is not spam:
> The class is already full for the 2005-2006 academic year so promoting
> it would be a complete waste of my time. Thus I am not doing so here.
> This post is just to emphasize that many of the commercial education
> programs are outrageously expensive and do not measure up in terms of
> value to even the programs offered by user groups. Speaking of which
> both the NYOUG (New York), RMOUG (Rocky Mountain), and NoCOUG (Northern
> California) Oracle User Groups do excellent education programs. Probably
> others too but I am just not as aware of their activities.
> --
> Daniel A. Morgan
> (replace x with u to respond)

well, i think this part of the thread has established a nice reference -- thanks for fleshing out the comparison

++ mcs Received on Thu Sep 15 2005 - 11:25:15 CDT

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