Path: dp-news.maxwell.syr.edu!spool.maxwell.syr.edu!drn.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local01.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 11:25:16 -0500 Reply-To: "Mark C. Stock" From: "Mark C. Stock" Newsgroups: comp.databases.oracle.server References: <1126638273.916921.245530@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126695211.482075.7070@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> <1126711827.545598@yasure> <1126755534.274708@yasure> <1126798700.355488@yasure> Subject: Re: Career Advise - Database Management Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 12:25:15 -0400 Organization: Enquery, Incorporated X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Response Message-ID: <8LidnWEmW4zxPbTeRVn-sg@comcast.com> Lines: 128 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.57.99.188 X-Trace: sv3-z3ZWZxI+EUMxwbwAChjOwFRIr9WtH5yim4IySOA8fGpHPod+tgw15tIPve/YFyOhbY124FSxXNjAOTT!75clB8OIqj9oGNHmp/aknfWp0+FUj8bqz1RUEhwuB23ImUYFzCysHLr1IqfF1p1LvQYH6rYr5qTd!9Q== X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.32 Xref: dp-news.maxwell.syr.edu comp.databases.oracle.server:251623 "DA Morgan" wrote in message news:1126798700.355488@yasure... > Mark C. Stock wrote: >> "DA Morgan" wrote in message >> news:1126755534.274708@yasure... >> >>>Mark C. Stock wrote: >>> >>> >>>>corporate instructor lead training goes for from $420 up to $550 or more >>>>per >>>>seat per day these days -- so at the low-end, $6k would covers about 14 >>>>days >>>>at 'standard' rates -- some 'boot camp' courses are listed for $9,495 >>>>for 14 >>>>days, including meals and accomodations >>> >>>On the basis that no one is going to apply for a Visa and move to the >>>US because I post this I will speak from experience. >>> >>>University of Washington Oracle program: 9 months: Less than $2,000. >>> >>>Puget Sound Oracle Users Group: all day hands-on classes with each >>>student getting their own server: ~$450/day. >>> >>>$6,000 for an OCP course is outrageous. >>>-- >>>Daniel A. Morgan >>>http://www.psoug.org >>>damorgan@x.washington.edu >>>(replace x with u to respond) >> >> >> so PSOUG's class verifies the going daily rate... but presumably the >> content and quality is at the high end of the spectrum > > Maximum class size 8 students. > Each student with their own server is expensive. > The user group only runs one or two classes a month. > So the entire cost of hardware, software, insurance, facilities, etc. > must be paid for from only those few students. > It is not intended to be a for-profit venture: And it isn't. ;-) > >> how many classroom hours for the UW program? > > 90 > >> likely the per hour cost will be less than ILT, but for a true comparison >> of options, you've got to compare course content. > > Here's the content in very rough form for the first quarter (30 hours) > 1. Concepts and architecture > 2. Logical and physical constructs > 3. Tables (all of them including GTT, External, IOT, Partitioning) > 4. Clusters > 5. Constraints (all of them including DEFERRABLE and the EXCEPTIONS INTO > clause) > 6. Views (including view constraints) > 7. Materialized Views > 8. DML (including joins, string, numeric, date, and some analytic > functions) > 9. Transaction model > > And beginning this year ... in 10g Release 2 so we will be covering the > new "basics" such as COMMIT WRITE BATCH, COMMIT WRITE WAIT, etc. > >> would 4.44444 PSOUG classes provide the same benefit as the UW program? >> more? good. less? then $450 may be outrageous as well. > > Wholly different subjects. The user group only teaches subjects not > taught anywhere else. The RAC class, for example, starts with formatted > hard disks and no network. Students build the network, install the O/S, > install the clusterware, then the Oracle binaries, etc. Even Oracle > itself doesn't deal with the o/s, storage, and network issues. Other > topics the user group classes cover are Grid Control, DataGuard, > Advanced Queueing, Warehouse Builder, etc. Just a completely different > type of class as they are all hand's-on and very real-world. > >> how many days of (quality) 'corporate' ILT training do you think would be >> needed to cover the content that the UW program covers? > > I'm not sure how I could estimate that. The UW program is 90 hours of > pure lecture. Student survey indicate that the students, doing their > homework, average 3 to 5 hours for every hour of classroom instruction. > Keep in mind the students at the U are not 20 year olds whose education > is being paid for by Mom and Dad. They are adult professionals, most > with CS degrees just learning a new skill. They are, to say the least, > very highly self-motivated. That 270 to 450 hours of homework ... is > self assigned. I never actually assign homework. I don't think your > typical corporate employee has what it takes to do this. > >> If the $6k program covers the same material, with the same educational >> benefit, as the UW program, then the $4k premium for expediency is pretty >> steep. If it covers less, that's even worse. But if it covers more, then >> the ROI comparison changes, no? >> >> ++ mcs > > Far far less for $6000 by definition. Simply put the $6000 program's > goal is that you can score 60% on a multiple choice test. The goal > from the university program is that Amazon.com, or similar companies, > will hire you (27 former students have been at Amazon and another is > being interviewed this week). A very substantially higher bar. > > Note: For those wondering ... university classes such as mine are not > financially subsidized by government/tax payers. They must be > financially self-supporting. And to re-emphasize this is not spam: > The class is already full for the 2005-2006 academic year so promoting > it would be a complete waste of my time. Thus I am not doing so here. > This post is just to emphasize that many of the commercial education > programs are outrageously expensive and do not measure up in terms of > value to even the programs offered by user groups. Speaking of which > both the NYOUG (New York), RMOUG (Rocky Mountain), and NoCOUG (Northern > California) Oracle User Groups do excellent education programs. Probably > others too but I am just not as aware of their activities. > -- > Daniel A. Morgan > http://www.psoug.org > damorgan@x.washington.edu > (replace x with u to respond) well, i think this part of the thread has established a nice reference -- thanks for fleshing out the comparison ++ mcs