Re: SQL*Plus replacement available - SPAM SPAM SPAM

[Quoted] Ed prochak wrote:

> "Ulrich Kobsa" <ulrich.kobsa_at_t-online.de> wrote in message
> news:<c9lcl3$tvc$07$1_at_news.t-online.com>...
> > Daniel Morgan wrote:
> >
> []
> > > That a spammer disagrees about how others react to his spam is
> > > rather unremarkable.
> > >
> > > You are promoting a product.
> > > You are spamming.
> > > Stop it!
> > > Or is courtesy too difficult a concept for you?
> >
> > Daniel,
> >
> > why are you reacting so rude?
>
> When was Daniel rude, other than using a certain four letter word?
>
>
> > ..... Ok, he/she is not using his/her realname
> > and maybe .marketplace is the right group to post. But IMHO it is
> > not so clear that new tools offerings cannot be posted on this
> > group.
>
> yes each group can set it's own culture. But I, Daniel, and others
> have tried to keep the separation clear. It is all too eay for a group
> to become useless if some guidelines are not followed.

That´s really ok to have some kind of moderation. What I don´t like is the way Daniel is doing it: to replace parts of the original posting with "spam" is not ok for me in this case. As english is not my native language I cannot express it the way I like to do to describe Daniels kind of answer: it´s the kind of sound he´s answering ( I hope you can understand what I mean).

[Quoted] btw: a real spammer would hardly be impressed by such answers.

>
> > ..... Where
> > it is forbidden in the charter? (btw: is this the right one:
> > http://www.orafaq.com/usenet/charter2.htm ?) One may suggest it when
> > reading the charter of .marketplace.
> >
> > And be honest: are you always reading the charter for every
> > newsgropup you are posting?
>
> That or reading the group for a period of time (the suggestion from
> news.newusers is to read a group for a month before posting). Either
> way, getting to know the people you are talking to is worthwhile.
>

Agree, but please have in mind that not every user knows that there is a charter. If someone just has learned that there is something like newsgroups (and such people exists!) i find it hard to assume that his/her first action will be to search for charters. That´s not very natural. The first reaction will be simply to post a question or whatever he/she want´s to get from a interesting newsgroup.

> > As long as the charter is not always the first post visible on top
> > you cannot assume that everyone is reading the charter.
>
> BUT you should be able to assume everyone is READING the group before
> POSTING. And that's exactly why NOT ignoring off topic posts and spam
> is so important.
> >
> > So please be a little bit more friendly and if you don´t like
> > postings like the original, then ignore it.
> >
> >
> > best regards,
> > Ulrich
>
> Daniel is very friendly. He is also very direct. Some see that as
> rude.
>
> Now the real question for you is whether to argue if the original post
> really belongs here. While you spoke about how Daniel's reply seems
> rude to you, you took no real stand on the issue of the original
> post's nature.

[Quoted] My intention for posting an answer to Daniel was mostly the way he answered because from a first reading I didn´t find anything wrong about the original posting except from the no-name. To post an tool offer to a .tools group seems to be natural for me (I don´t read this group very regularly so I didn´t find it wrong). According to the .tools charter I find no sentence where it is explicitly told that tool offerings are not allowed to be posted here. It will only become clear when you also reading the .marketplace charter.
But IMHO this is a very unnatural distinction. If I want to discuss about the offered tool I had to switch to a different group. That´s strange. Have a look for borland.delphi.thirdpartytool.general: here you can see offerings but also discussions about tools. That´s the way I would do it. And if you have a commitment that every announcement should be marked as [ANN:] then in most cases you can clearly seperate discussion and offering.

>
> Do you think it is a great hardship to keep such posts in the
> Marketplace group and out of this group? If enough people support such
> a stand, it may persuade Daniel and myself. I've seldom seen more than
> one or two (outside of the spammer) take that stand.
>

No, but as I told above it sounds unnatural to me. Could you or who can do it add a new paragraph to the charter regarding this issue?. I for myself can live with the current state as I know it now.

Well I hope now my point of view is a little bit more clear.

> To other readers, especially lurkers:
> Come on people speak up and take a stand. Ultimately in an open group
> like this, persuasion is the final authority.
>
> Ed

best regards,
Ulrich

-- 
Ulrich Kobsa
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