Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: From ORACLE-L to DATABASE-L?

#oraclewtf might actually get some traction on Twitter. :)

On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 7:50 AM, Jeff Smith <jeff.d.smith_at_oracle.com> wrote:

> I’ve tried to get #oraclehelp going before, but maybe #oraclewtf was the
> way to go…although now I can’t officially endorse this direction.
>
>
>
> *From:* Kellyn Pot'Vin-Gorman <dbakevlar_at_gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, March 16, 2018 11:02 PM
> *To:* christopherdtaylor1994_at_gmail.com
> *Cc:* ORACLE-L <oracle-l_at_freelists.org>; Tim Gorman <tim.evdbt_at_gmail.com>;
> donald.freeman.ctr_at_ablcda.navy.mil
> *Subject:* Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: From ORACLE-L to DATABASE-L?
>
>
>
> You do realize the high percentage of dyslexia in IT are going to read
> that as “Oracle WTF” right? :)
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 6:53 PM Chris Taylor <
> christopherdtaylor1994_at_gmail.com> wrote:
>
> One thing I got from this thread is we also need a Twitter hash tag...
>
>
>
> #orclftw ?
>
>
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 12:22 PM Freeman, Donald G. CTR <
> donald.freeman.ctr_at_ablcda.navy.mil> wrote:
>
> Tim, don't take it as a criticism. I've been following you since
> Compuserve days. When I was just stumbling my way into Oracle you
> answered one of the first couple of questions I asked about SQL language :D.
>
> Donald Freeman
> Database Administrator
> Imagine One Technology & Management, Ltd.
> Robin Hood Road (RHR) Facility, Norfolk, VA 23513
> Telephone: (757)-852-7724 Commercial
> Telephone: (717)-497-1037 Mobile
> Telephone: (757)-852-7777 PMO-IT Help Desk
> donald.freeman.ctr_at_ablcda.navy.mil
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Gorman [mailto:tim.evdbt_at_gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2018 11:06 AM
> To: Freeman, Donald G. CTR; ORACLE-L
> Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: From ORACLE-L to DATABASE-L?
>
> It was just an idea. Apparently not a good one.
>
> Thanks for the feedback.
>
>
> On 3/16/18 06:49, Freeman, Donald G. CTR wrote:
> > Things I learned from history: Just before things die they expand.
> If I was just starting out I think I would be looking for an Oracle group
> and not a database group. I think we would be better off staying as an
> Oracle group. I'm pretty confident that whatever issue I have somebody
> here knows the answer.
> >
> >
> >
> > Donald Freeman
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org [mailto:oracle-l-bounce_at_
> freelists.org] On Behalf Of Robert Freeman
> > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2018 12:29 PM
> > To: Tim Gorman; ORACLE-L
> > Subject: [Non-DoD Source] RE: From ORACLE-L to DATABASE-L?
> >
> > Tim,
> >
> >
> >
> > My two cents… and of course, some of this depends on how much time you
> really want to invest in all of this… J
> >
> >
> >
> > There is a lot of benefit in maintaining the Oracle specific focus of
> ORACLE-L:
> >
> >
> >
> > – Technology specific content means that there is less sifting
> through the “cross-pollination” of topics to get to the technology specific
> question you have. Purity is important I think.
> >
> > – I would suspect that technology specific lists will attract
> those who specialize in those specific technologies. A pure stack is
> probably likely to get more authoritive answers than a watered down stack.
> >
> > o I’ve seen technology neutral boards/lists often provide inaccurate
> information posted by folks who are not spending a lot of time with the
> technology they offer answers on. I think you would see a lot more “I
> think” or “I guess” kinds of answers.
> >
> > o I’ve also seen technology neutral boards/lists have holy wars about
> the various stacks, that are no fun. Granted, many of those threads
> eventually get policed.
> >
> > – In many cases, standards, processes, terminology and other
> things differ across stacks. This could confuse beginners. Things in the
> Oracle world change fast enough – multiply that several times for each
> additional stack you add to the mailing list.
> >
> > – You have beginners here often, and I’d be concerned that
> cross-technology/stack posting could get confusing for them.
> >
> > – With all of the stacks, there is such depth and breadth that I’d
> be afraid a less focused mailing list would become less useful.
> >
> > – A less focused technology list will be harder to search for the
> answer you are looking for.
> >
> >
> >
> > This reasoning extends to other active and emerging database stacks,
> they should have their own lists.
> >
> >
> >
> > Then the question that comes to my mind is, can we have our cake and eat
> it too?
> >
> > Why not source, from these DB specific lists, a consolidated and
> searchable list from all database specific lists? Something like DBALL-L. I
> would think that it would be easy to automate the copying of threads to
> such a list? This would be helpful for those who want to look for topics
> related to more than one stack.
> >
> > I am debating if one should allow posts in the DBALL-L list… That would
> require some level of moderation to ensure that posts don’t really belong
> in a database specific list, though I do suggest a possible DBINTEGRATION-L
> list that could be the place to post cross-platform questions.
> >
> >
> >
> > Second, (just thinking aloud here) with respect to social media - Is
> there some way that we can integrate lists like ORACLE-L into social media
> platforms like twitter, facebook and linked in (and maybe that’s already
> done in some way – I have largely removed myself from social media – I just
> was finding the signal to noise ratio - inefficient)?
> >
> >
> >
> > Is there some way to integrate the technologies so that we can actually
> improve the usability of all of them? Perhaps such a thing is more effort
> that it’s worth…. I just wonder if there is an ORACLE-L post, if there
> should not be some related tweet that goes out to the ORACLE-L twitter
> subscribers with maybe a subject and link to the post (just thinking aloud
> here – there could be great arguments not to do this). Or a Linked in daily
> post with the digest contents of Oracle-L…?
> >
> >
> >
> > Along with ORACLE-L or MSSQL-L I think there is a good argument for a
> few other lists? (depending on how many lists one wants to have/manage).
> >
> >
> >
> > For example:
> >
> >
> >
> > – DBALL-L – Integrated list of all *-L lists for those who love
> super cross-pollination.
> >
> > – DBINTEGRATION-L - List services for those trying to integrate
> stacks. I think such a list could certainly be cross-stack.
> >
> > – DBMIGRATION-L – List services for those migrating between
> database stacks.
> >
> > – DBCLOUD-L – List services specific to database cloud offerings
> >
> > – DATASCIENCE-L – List services related to data science topics.
> >
> > – DBREPLICATION-L – List services related to replication services
> like Golden Gate or Shareplex
> >
> > – DBRETIREEARLY-L – Self-explanatory – Currently among my favorite
> list ideas.
> >
> >
> >
> > I guess, in part, all of this really boils down to what is the need of
> the community? What will drive them to use the tool that has been so
> wonderful in the past – Namely Oracle-L.
> >
> >
> >
> > My thoughts…. VMMV….. Cheers!!
> >
> >
> >
> > RF
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Robert G. Freeman
> >
> > Deliverer of Data
> >
> > Businessolver
> >
> > Cell: 801-703-3405
> >
> > Anon: Science. If you don’t make mistakes, you’re doing it wrong. If you
> don’t correct those mistakes, you’re doing it really wrong. If can’t accept
> that you’re mistaken, you’re not doing it at all.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org [mailto:oracle-l-bounce_at_
> freelists.org] On Behalf Of Stefan Knecht
> > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2018 10:48 AM
> > To: Tim Gorman <tim.evdbt_at_gmail.com>
> > Cc: ORACLE-L <oracle-l_at_freelists.org>
> > Subject: Re: From ORACLE-L to DATABASE-L?
> >
> >
> >
> > Personally, my vote would be oracle-only. Perhaps add a second list
> maintained with the same style that is for other DBMS.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 10:42 PM, Zahir Mohideen <zahir.dba_at_gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Tim -
> >
> >
> >
> > it is a great idea to expand oracle_l to database_l .
> >
> >
> >
> > My question is , if we were to expand , are we restricting the
> discussions to RDBMS only or include NOSQL dbs as well.
> >
> >
> >
> > Usually , we ( I am also in SQL server side ) communicate in
> Twitter with #sqlhelp tag .
> >
> >
> >
> > - Zahir
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Zahir Mohideen
> > http://mfzahirdba.blogspot.com/
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__mfzahirdba.blogspot.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=N2hWu5HFsaIjmMkjQbnlokJ7uinNZMgPVk8rqPT9esM&m=FxN448mDxRFQ61yKYeL1M-acBjqhTqiYErHabw9PnCE&s=6KUHcqTDcYuaZGm3aajmGawVBKVTdwgkaT-uV3NTt0g&e=>
> >
> >
> > Nothing so GREAT was achieved without enthusiasm
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 10:56 AM, Tim Gorman <tim.evdbt_at_gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > >> So, of course, I ask Oracle people about it. :)
> >
> > This thread is a good argument for expanding ORACLE-L to
> DATABASE-L.
> >
> > There is a vibrant technical community in SQL Server and
> it is long past time that these communities cross-pollinated better.
> >
> > As this thread shows, it isn't that one or the other DBMS
> is better, but they can be different in subtle ways which can trip up even
> the most experienced of us.
> >
> > And, as this thread shows, many of us are tasked with
> administering both DBMS packages, in addition to PostgreSQL and MySQL.
> >
> > I'm proud to cite my wife, Kellyn <http://dbakevlar.com/
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__dbakevlar.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=N2hWu5HFsaIjmMkjQbnlokJ7uinNZMgPVk8rqPT9esM&m=FxN448mDxRFQ61yKYeL1M-acBjqhTqiYErHabw9PnCE&s=tmoxewcYPAkyV5W9XsZi7ER95-Ey9lq2viH7-IVevwk&e=>>
> , as an example of this breed of renaissance geek, as she is currently
> president of both the Rocky Mountain Oracle Users Group <http://rmoug.org
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__rmoug.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=N2hWu5HFsaIjmMkjQbnlokJ7uinNZMgPVk8rqPT9esM&m=FxN448mDxRFQ61yKYeL1M-acBjqhTqiYErHabw9PnCE&s=AK33hiI2Y3OKcB49Jh5KUnLrXfM54wOC1YTRNnzZXiU&e=>>
> and of the Denver SQL Server users group <http://denversql.org
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__denversql.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=N2hWu5HFsaIjmMkjQbnlokJ7uinNZMgPVk8rqPT9esM&m=FxN448mDxRFQ61yKYeL1M-acBjqhTqiYErHabw9PnCE&s=EDRo5YyxavXEmZqeN9RY3-67nbpp8kH2grvlRIZc-Xk&e=>>
> , and she is likely soon to become the first person in the world to achieve
> both Oracle ACE Director (now alumnae) and Microsoft MVP recognition.
> >
> > One noticeable difference between the two communities is
> age. On average, Kellyn and I find attendees at SQL Server users group
> events to be about 10 years younger than Oracle users group events, based
> on unscientific eyeball observation. Also, the SQL Server users group
> community has a much larger percentage of women attendees and speakers
> (i.e. about 40% for SQL to about 20% for Oracle).
> >
> > As a result, while the ORACLE-L list has been yakking
> along happily here on email for the past 20 years, the SQL Server community
> has been largely conversing on Twitter. Both communities blog at about the
> same rate and volume (in my opinion), and both communities seem to use
> LinkedIn to the same degree (in my opinion). So, the biggest difference in
> online communication style seems to be email vs tweets.
> >
> > So, if we were to go through the effort of changing from
> ORACLE-L to DATABASE-L (leaving aliases from ORACLE-L to point to
> DATABASE-L so folks can still find us), we would find adoption by the SQL
> Server community to be slow, because they would have a struggle paying
> attention to, and responding to, a high-volume email list. There are
> undoubtedly good ways to integrate email and Twitter, and I'm sure they can
> be quite seamless, but the first question is: what do y'all think?
> >
> > How do you personally feel about discussing and learning
> about SQL Server as well as Oracle? Would it enhance your prospects?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 3/15/18 07:23, Rich J wrote:
> >
> > On 2018/03/15 07:34, Jeff Smith wrote:
> >
> > Brent is a friend and an ex-coworker. He
> wanted to share the background of this customer's scenario, in case it
> would help you with yours.
> >
> > I let Brent know some folks were
> having...fun...with his take on autocommit.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >
> >
> > Heh heh heh, I can only imagine. The
> difference on optimistic vs pessimistic concurrency nailed it though - the
> default combo of optimistic & implicit transactions makes sense in Oracle,
> and the default of pessimistic and automatic transactions makes sense in
> SQL Server. It's when you change only one of those two settings that you're
> screwed.
> >
> > The blog post stemmed from an app that had
> been written by SQL Server people, and then an Oracle guy came in and made
> a few changes. He switched to implicit transactions without understanding
> that everybody was doing single-line inserts/updates all over the place in
> code, not bothering to set transactions. He didn't understand the impact of
> what he was doing. (Not an Oracle jab by any means - the guy was
> well-meaning but just not prepared.)
> >
> > We got called in because performance went
> straight into the toilet. Even worse, rollbacks were rolling back
> completely unrelated transactions, and nobody knew why, hahaha.
> >
> > Ah, that context adds a lot to the assertion. I
> still disagree that autocommit is a good practice for applications, whether
> it's Oracle or SQL Server, but I understand where Brent's coming from.
> >
> > And my intent wasn't to have "fun", but a sanity
> check for myself. IT changes constantly outside of my narrow focus, and as
> I've been following Brent's blog for years, that entry offers an opinion
> that is completely backwards of my understanding of how any modern RDBMS
> should work.
> >
> > So, of course, I ask Oracle people about it. :)
> >
> > Thanks all for the sanity check!
> > Rich
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
>
>
>
> [image: Kellyn Pot'Vin on about.me]
>
>
>
> *Kellyn Pot'Vin-Gorman*
>
> DBAKevlar Blog
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__dbakevlar.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=N2hWu5HFsaIjmMkjQbnlokJ7uinNZMgPVk8rqPT9esM&m=FxN448mDxRFQ61yKYeL1M-acBjqhTqiYErHabw9PnCE&s=hBGSpQDDeLfACY8uww52v1iFbUMrLp-Z7OBRA_X2A1o&e=>
>
> President Rocky Mtn. Oracle User Group
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.rmoug.org_&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=N2hWu5HFsaIjmMkjQbnlokJ7uinNZMgPVk8rqPT9esM&m=FxN448mDxRFQ61yKYeL1M-acBjqhTqiYErHabw9PnCE&s=8YeyiBjXCTuaAgDTPn8R2o0k-hElFtVPseuKu5WsGEc&e=>
>
> President Denver SQL Server User Group
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__denversql.org_&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=N2hWu5HFsaIjmMkjQbnlokJ7uinNZMgPVk8rqPT9esM&m=FxN448mDxRFQ61yKYeL1M-acBjqhTqiYErHabw9PnCE&s=_1uWxyL0ZZjVR2hDABU_Y_hrdNzlVhvXYBu1KCdcL2w&e=>
>
> about.me/dbakevlar
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__about.me_dbakevlar&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=N2hWu5HFsaIjmMkjQbnlokJ7uinNZMgPVk8rqPT9esM&m=FxN448mDxRFQ61yKYeL1M-acBjqhTqiYErHabw9PnCE&s=r6JoYDnPsEmn8R8fStUr0UWUStl5t1H0DmpLtDQHsJ8&e=>
>
>
>
>
>

--
http://www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l