Re: The wisdom of the object mentors (Was: Searching OO Associations with RDBMS Persistence Models)

From: Daniel Parker <>
Date: 6 Jun 2006 12:46:48 -0700
Message-ID: <>

erk wrote:
> Andrew McDonagh wrote:

> Bob's use of
> "idiot", "predator", "stupidity", etc. are backed up, usually in the
> same paragraph, by examples.
I disagree. To back up a claim of "idiot", "stupidity", etc. Bob would have to present some evidence of low IQ or cognitive impairment, and I don't think he's done that. I think Bob's real objection is that RCM is speaking in an authoritative voice about a subject on which, in Bob's opinion, RCM is not an authority. That upsets Bob, it makes him angry. So he reaches into his schoolboy repertoire and comes up with something, "idiot", whatever.

> Robert Martin's prose is less overtly insulting, but contains ample
> patronizing and implications of stupidity. Examples:
> >>Nahhh. The DBMS must store the data, manage the queries, and enforce
> >>some integrity rules. Business rules are in the domain of the
> >>application. We don't want the business rules being done by the
> >>database.
> Dismissive, dogmatic, and unsubstantiated, all in one fell swoop!
I have to confess that I don't find the above quote particularly objectional, you'll note that RCM allows for the enforcement of integrity constraints at the RDBMS level. I think you'll find that application developers and business analysts have a significantly different understanding of the term "business rules" than do database analysts. Once you allow for that difference, the gap may not appear that great.

> >>No, a DBMS is a bucket of bits with some low level rules to manage
> >>those bits.
> Dogmatic and uninformed.
Indeed, it would appear so (sorry RCM)

> >>The people who sell databases have sold you, and the industry, a
> >>misconception: that the database is the heart of the system. This is
> >>flawed.
> REALLY patronizing. Implies gullibility on the part of - well, everyone
> but Bob, and declares this snake oil (not the subject of discussion,
> but a straw man) flawed, based evidently on his authority.
Oh, come on, there's no shortage of gullibility in the world, and vendors will exploit it wherever they find it. But vendor's aren't evangelizing RDBMS databases anymore, they've moved onto other things, like SOA, ESB's, XML databases, etc. Some of these things even have some merit, in particular contexts, in the solution of problems. But vendors don't care about that.

Daniel Parker Received on Tue Jun 06 2006 - 21:46:48 CEST

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