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Re: The wisdom of the object mentors (Was: Searching OO Associations with RDBMS Persistence Models)

From: Dmitry A. Kazakov <>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 22:57:25 +0200
Message-ID: <6bxw3slwltut.1hp76mukduj5i$>

On 1 Jun 2006 13:07:49 -0700, Mikito Harakiri wrote:

> Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:

>> Operations on functions (subprograms):

> These are easily defined in the realtional world (where we consider a
> function as a relation)
>> 1. Mapping (call to) the tuple of arguments to the tuple of results
>>    Map : f x x1 x  x2 x ... x xN -> y1 x y2 x ... x yN

> Calling a function f(x,y) with two arguments x=1 and y=2 is relational
> join of three relations:
> 'z=f(x,y)' /\ `x=1` /\ `y=2`
> projected to attribute z.

Where you get z for all possible x and y? Another problem is that this is untyped. You should add some constrains on x and y. You can do it externally, but it should be a function property. The third problem is that you need "=" for all things as well as literals for all things. It is a can of worms. Especially function literals aren't easy. What is a literal of sine?

>> 2. Composition:
>>    o : f1 x f2 -> f1 (f2 (x))

> Composition of y=f(x) and z=g(y) is relational join
> 'y=f(x)' /\ 'z=g(y)'
> projected to attributes x and z.

Same problem as before.

>> 3. Comparison
>>    = : f1 x f2 -> Boolean

> Comparison is the symmetric difference of the two relations. It is a
> relation, not boolena value. Empty result means that the relations are
> identical.

This is non-constructive. Are you going to compare all inputs and outputs? Even if they model uncountable sets?

>> 4. Copy (for marshaling, closures etc)
>>    := : f -> f

> Copying is not a logical operation.

It is. You should consider the computational state as an additional parameter:

":=" : f x S -> f x S

> Yet it corresponds to a trivial
> relational query that outputs the same relation.

>> 5. Convolution
>>    * : f1 x f2 x sum x prod x inv -> sum (prod (f(x), g(inv (x)))

> In your description I don't see how convolution is different from
> composition.

You have some free arguments and some bound arguments. Bound arguments run through some set. It can be specified through relations, of course. Anything can be.

>> 6. Extension
>> and so on

> What is extension?

This is when you add some prologue and/or epilogue to a subprogram. It is especially important in generic programming and for things like constructors and destructors. In general, when you want to enforce some semantics on the resulting function.

>>>> But that is rather trivial and uninteresting.
>>> Well, it's hardly trivial for numbers, why it suddenly becomes trivial
>>> for functions?
>> Because in this particular case function is a value and values are outside
>> the language scope. Somewhere in the application domain exists 2. So there
>> does sine. You don't care what they are. You only need some object to
>> represent them. Let the bit pattern 0x1 represent 2 and 0x2 do sine. End of
>> story.

> I don't understand this gibberish.

Would "sin" be better?

>> Don't you see any difference between mathematical constructs and
>> programming language objects?

> Yes. Programming language objects are bastardized counterparts of
> mathematical constructs.

Right. The problem is that mathematical constructs modeled in a computational framework might be too large for any finite state machine. So an uncountable set of real numbers is replaced by a finite set of intervals. That's the gibberish in which I am talking. We can't have all the table of real-valued functions. The size of this table is aleph-2! Where you find a hard disk of this size? Fortunately, from all this table, today, I need only sine. So I say let sine be denoted as 0x2.

Nevertheless, nothing prevents us to formalize these bastards and use mathematical rigour to handle them. Disagree?

Dmitry A. Kazakov
Received on Thu Jun 01 2006 - 15:57:25 CDT

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