Re: Does Codd's view of a relational database differ from that ofDate&Darwin?[M.Gittens]
From: Dan <dan_at_nospam.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:51:16 -0500
Message-ID: <F5Vue.32$_r5.4924_at_news.uswest.net>
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> Yeah, I know it's anecdotal.
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> Which big names are those?
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> I've often wondered what exactly *is* an XML-native solution. Is it
> storing everything as text files?
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> Well, if you just treat XML document as a data type, there is no abuse
> involved. The RM *is* designed for this.
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> So it is a renaissance of the network model?
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> Ok ... but I though half the point of OODBs was to lessen the "impedance
> mismatch" between procedural OO programming languages and declarative
> databases (by making the databases less declarative). What is the
> motivation now?
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:51:16 -0500
Message-ID: <F5Vue.32$_r5.4924_at_news.uswest.net>
On 6/24/2005 9:43 AM, Jon Heggland wrote:
> In article <V4Eue.128061$PH4.7042098_at_phobos.telenet-ops.be>,
> jan.hidders_at_REMOVETHIS.pandora.be says...
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>>>Would that it were that simple. The same could be said about the "XML >>>data model", yet well-known researchers are happily reinventing the >>>square wheels of IMS and similar systems, apparently blissfully unaware >>>of the history and fate of hierarchical databases. I recently reviewed a >>>paper for VLDB which was quite scary in that regard---especially since >>>another reviewer, a really *big* name, said it was the strongest he had >>>reviewed. >> >>That's quite possible, but since I don't know the details I couldn't >>possibly comment.
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> Yeah, I know it's anecdotal.
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>>On the other hand, I know from personal experience >>that even some of the big names that are right at the core of the hype, >>are very clear about what they think XML is useful for what it is not >>useful for, and who would judge any claims that it would somehow replace >>the relational model as, and I quote, ridiculous.
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> Which big names are those?
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>>In that respect I really like the work by Torsten Grust et al that shows >>that you can do XML on top of an RDBMS, and that even though you are >>pushing the square XML peg in the round RM hole, you will still get >>something that works in many respects better than XML-native solutions.
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> I've often wondered what exactly *is* an XML-native solution. Is it
> storing everything as text files?
>
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>>So even if you are basically horribly abusing the RDBMS and shoving all >>that vile XML stuff down her throat, which it was not really built for >>in the first place, she will still happily and with a smile on her face >>provide you the scalability that we have become so accustomed to. Almost >>brings tears to my eyes. *snif* :-)
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> Well, if you just treat XML document as a data type, there is no abuse
> involved. The RM *is* designed for this.
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>>>The >>>question is whether such models are different *enough* from the network >>>model(s) to make it worthwhile to distinguish between them. The concept >>>exists, but that in itself does not mean very much. >> >>I don't completely agree that this is the right question. What has >>changed is not so much the data model, but the whole cloud of knowledge >>and silent assumptions that surrounds it. For the network model it was >>usually assumed that you wouldn't need query optimization. That >>data-independence was not possible or just a nice-to-have. In the >>beginning some also thought that about OODBs. That, in my experience, >>has changed.
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> So it is a renaissance of the network model?
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>>>(Another point is the question of what "OO" in that context really >>>means---the paper does not mention encapsulation, polymorphism or >>>inheritance. What is an object?) >> >>Well, the main reason for that is that these aspects are not relevant >>and somewhat orthogonal to the problem that it studies. I think I have a >>pretty good idea of their view on that, though.
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> Ok ... but I though half the point of OODBs was to lessen the "impedance
> mismatch" between procedural OO programming languages and declarative
> databases (by making the databases less declarative). What is the
> motivation now?
Procedural OO programming? Isn't that an oxymoron? Received on Fri Jun 24 2005 - 16:51:16 CEST