Re: SYBASE acquired PowerSoft AND SDP, was Re: PowerBuilder acquires S-designer?

You are one angry guy aren't you Dennis?

In <dbmooreDC0vB6.Gry_at_netcom.com> dbmoore_at_netcom.com (Dennis Moore) writes:
>
>I love this. Keep calling me names, and then claim you are ethical.
 That's
>what (see later reference to FUD) Sybase calls SOP (standard operating
>practice).
>
>In article <3ul2pr$age_at_ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> fcasas_at_ix.netcom.com
 (Francisco Casas) writes:
>>Ok, let's get down to the business of solving customer problems and
>>to correcting Dennis' statements (again!). The points are addressed
>>in the following order:
>>
>> * Oracle's ethics
>> * Oracle’s resource requirements
>> * Oracle's so called open approach
>> * Powersoft independence (again!)
>> * Miscellaneous topics raised by Dennis
>>
>>This is my last response to Dennis, as he can not rise above the
>>emotional mud slinging that is so typical of Oracle.
>
>This is known as the pot calling the kettle black. "So typical of"
 Sybase.
>
>>ORACLE'S ETHICS
>>Let me say this. You, as a product manager have the responsibility
 to
>>behave ethically and with credibility in the eyes of anyone that may
 be
>>your prospect or customer. As a product manager you carry more
 weight
>>in forming the perception of your employer. The demeanor you've
>>displayed and the name calling you resort to, speaks volumes about
 your
>>integrity and business ethics, and those of your employer.
>
>I believe that fighting lies is ethical. You may not like someone to
>point out your lies, but both the lies and the claims that they are
 not
>lies backed up by more lies count in my book as unethical behavior.
 This
>speaks volumes about your integrity and business ethics, and those of
>your employer.
>
>>If you want to see a posting of an ethical person. Look at my
 response
>>to posting on "RE: Need opinions on SQLServer." Someone trying to be
>>helpful posted an article on Oracle, Sybase and Microsoft.
>>Unfortunately, that article failed to mention features, in all three
>>products, that are beneficial to customers. I've pointed out some
>>of the ommited features in Sybase, Microsoft and, yes, Oracle. At
>>Sybase (and it subsidiaries) our intent is to ensure that customers
>>make informed deicision based on facts, not on the name calling
 you've
>>resorted to.
>
>Why don't you just pat yourself on the back some more. I will not
 accept
>ethics lessons from a you!
>
>>NO, I DON'T THINK that the other ex-Ingres people turned into a term
>>YOU came up with (see Dennis' response). I never brought up any
 other
>>individual in my response other than you (whose level of integrity
 and
>>business ethics can be clearly judged by your response). By the way,
>>we've never met, but we do have common friends and I was led to
 believe
>>that you were an ethical, credible, and professional person. It is
>>unfortunate that you have proved them wrong.
>
>Perhaps it is not they, but you who are wrong.
>
>>ORACLE'S RESOURCE REQUIREMENTS
>>According to Oracle's own documentation the MINIMUM requirements are:
>>
>>Product RAM Machine
>>----------------------- ------ -------
>>Oracle Designer/2000: 16MB 486/33 /* Can't remember if its
 32MB.
>>Oracle Developer/2000: 16MB 486/33 So, I'll put 16MB for
>>Oracle Personal Oracle: 8MB 486/33 Oracle Designer/2000 */
>> ------
>>TOTAL 40MB
>> ======
>
>16 MB for Developer/2000 is RECOMMENDED, not minimum. These are
 realistic
>figures, not "hello, world" application figures. Designer/2000 I
 believe
>is 20 MB, incidentally for minimum, not 16 MB, and we recommend 32 MB.
 You
>do NOT need AN ADDITIONAL 16 MB for Developer/2000. And most of our
 users
>are developing client/server applications, so they do not use a local
>Personal Oracle7. So RECOMMENDED memory figures are 32 MB for
 Designer/2000
>(regardless of whether you are using Developer/2000 or not), 16 MB for
>Developer/2000.
>
>>By contrast the recommended MINIMUM requirements for PowerBuilder,
>>S-Designor and Watcom SQL (a Powersoft product) are 8MB of RAM on a
>>386/33.
>
>This is quite frankly a crock. RECOMMENDED memory requirements for
>PowerBuilder are 16 MB RAM, the same as for Developer/2000. Even
 going
>by minimum memory, S-Designor, PowerBuilder, and Watcom will not ALL
>run together in 8 MB RAM. And S-Designor doesn't generate or reverse
>engineer PowerBuilder applications, doesn't support functional
 modeling,
>doesn't support BPR diagramming, etc. It doesn't have a quarter of
 the
>functionality of Designer/2000, so it's not surprising it runs in less
>memory. You repeatedly make apples to oranges comparisons, but I
 guess
>you consider that to be ethical Sybase behavior.
>
>>The price difference in hardware requirements is:
>>
>> 40MB - 8MB = 32MB _at_ $45/MB = $1,440
>>
>>This doesn't even take into account the additional disk space or the
>>more powerful CPU requirements of Oracle.
>>
>>POWERSOFT INDEPENDENCE
>>You've raised the issue of Powersoft independence. Let me say that
>>we've structured our sales forces to incent Powersoft to remain
>>database independent. The fact that you would like to have
 customer's
>>think otherwise stresses your desperation by creating what the Oracle
 

>>sales force normally calls FUD (Fear/Uncertainty/Dought) in the mind
 of
>>customers in order to sell your products. This is a technique that
>>Oracle shows its sales force during sales training.
>
>Excuse me, have you ever attended an Oracle sales force training
 class???
>You are lying once again. We don't teach our sales force to be
 unethical.
>In fact, every new Oracle employee is trained on ethics, receives a
 manual
>on Oracle's ethical standards, and is offered management training on
 ethics.
>
>>I'll give you another example of how independent Powersoft is. When
>>the merger was complete Powersoft had very early versions of
>>Microsoft's Starfigher. Needless to say, Sybase wanted to see it.
>>Powersoft was under non-disclosure with Microsoft and would not
>>share what they knew about Starfighter. Another, is that Powersoft
>>has received a lot of information on OLE-DB. Again, they can not
>>share that information with Sybase. What this means is that
 Powersoft
>>will provide OLE-DB support for Microsoft SQL Server 6.0 prior to
>>providing OLE-DB support to any Sybase database server.
>
>So what you mean is that Sybase's PowerBuilder division employees
 refused
>a Sybase request to violate their non-disclosure agreement with
 Microsoft,
>in effect agreeing to comply to a request to break the law. I fail to
 see
>your point -- this is not about ethics, it's about legalities. Both
>companies regularly conform to contracts they sign. That's why
 Oracle's
>database group would never reveal the problems they were attempting to
>help PowerBuilder, when it WAS independent, resolve in its database
 interface
>to Oracle7; our ethics at Oracle didn't permit our tools group to
 even ask
>our database group. We discovered most of the database interface
 weaknesses
>of PowerBuilder right here on the Net from customers posting in their
>frustration.
>
>>Another point that will ease customer's mind in that Powersoft
>>remains database neutral is the fact that prior to the aquisition
>>Powersoft's customer base was 40% non-SQL Server accounts.
>>Seven months after the aquisition Powersoft's customer base of
>>non-SQL Server accounts is now up to 50%. We at Sybase are
>>commited to maintaining the independence of Powersoft. This
>>trend clearly illustrates that as Powersoft adds support to more
>>databases (over 40 now) the SQL Server portion of Powersoft's sales
>>becomes a smaller percentage. By the way those figures include
>>both Sybase and Microsoft SQL Server.
>
>That's another crock. Sybase repeatedly claims "support" for over 40
>databases. However, if you call into PowerBuilder technical support,
>they don't have a copy of most of these databases and can't reproduce
 your
>problem. They tell you it must be a bug in the database, even though
>dozens of other tools have no such problem. When we at Oracle's tools
>division say we support a database, it means we have fully regression
>tested the interface and documented any limitations we found.
 Sybase's
>tools division (Powersoft) doesn't regression test against their 40
>"supported" databases.
>
>>ORACLE'S SO CALLED OPEN APPROACH
>>First let's compare apples to apples. Oracle can not possibly have
>>a huge number of referenceable sites (contrary to Dennis' claims)
>>using Sybase SQL Server and Microsoft SQL Server, as Developer/2000
>>just came out to the market. Do you call support to a handful of
>>databases open? By contrast, PowerBuilder has been supporting
>>multiple database vendors for several years. PowerBuilder supports
>>over 40 different databases.
>
>Developer/2000 was released in March. It is fully upwardly compatible
>with CDE2 (i.e. Forms 4.5) and CDE (i.e. Forms 4.0). We have many
>reference sites using Forms 4.0, Forms 4.5, and Developer/2000 with
>non-Oracle databases including the various versions of SQL Server.
>And while we regression test and fully support "a handful of
 databases"
>(Oracle7, Rdb, System 10, MS SQL Server, MS Access, DB2, DB2/400,
 DB2/VM,
>anything that supports APPC, anything that supports DRDA, anything
>supported by Tuxedo, and many others), we also provide an ODBC adapter
>which we don't regression test beyond MS SQL Server, MS Access, and
>Oracle7 (and therefore don't claim to support anything else with it),
>which we have been shipping since Forms 4.0, which many customers use
>to access MS SQL Server, MS Access, ascii files, Informix, Ingres, and
>many other databases.
>
>>Designer/2000 does not support multiple databases, it only supports
>>Oracle. So much for Oracle's open approach. S-Designor, by contrast
>>generates databases for over 40 databases. Once you use
 Designer/2000
>>you are LOCKED IN TO ORACLE. By contrast, the models in S-Designer
>>are available for customers to use on over 40 databases.
>
>We also support ANSI SQL now in Designer/2000, and are working on both
>reverse engineering and forward generation with other databases. It
 is
>a simple matter to edit the generated SQL scripts for use with other
>databases, however, and we have many customers doing so today.
>
>>I'll give you another example. Let's talk about gateways. Oracle
>>claims to be open, yet they require you to purchase their RDBMS in
>>order to make use of their gateways. By contrast, MDI's gateways
>>(a subsidiary of Sybase) don't require that Sybase's database be
>>used. Over 20% of MDI's customers don't even use Sybase SQL Server.
>>For example, a few weeks ago a college of mine was involved in a
 sales
>>call with a customer that needed to move data between IMS, ADABAS and
>>Oracle. We sold them the gateways to do this. Did the MDI sales rep
>>try to sell them Sybase SQL Server? Nope. There is no need! Our
>>gateways are open, just like all our other products. Oracle is not
>>an open environment!
>
>Typical!!! The Oracle database is PART OF THE GATEWAY! It is there
 so
>our gateways can take advantage of our optimizer, join database across
>multiple databases, do two-phase commit across multiple heterogeneous
>databases, and serve as an application server. This way we get our
 great
>optimizer etc. in our gateways, not just in our database. That's why
 our
>gateways outperform yours, or aren't you claiming that MDI is as
 independent
>as PowerBuilder anymore?
>
>>MISCCELANEOUS TOPICS
>>You asked about Tom Herring. For those of you not familiar with
>>influential magazines in the US, there's a magazine titled “Upside”.
>>Upside is one of the bibles in the computer industry and regularly
>>performs profiles on industry luminaries such as Andy Grove, Bill
>>Gates and others. Upside just named Tom Herring the best marketing
>>person in the software industry. Sybase was looking for a VP of
>>Marketing so we asked Tom Herring to take on that role. Why would we
 

>>ask anyone other than the best to take on that job?
>
>No question that he's the best at outbound marketing, otherwise known
>as hype. Just about all our marketing people at Oracle are from
>engineering, consulting, or technical support. Tom Herring is now in
>charge of all marketing at Sybase, including the PowerBuilder and SDP
>products. This is not what is known as separate and independent, is
 it?
>
>Now for my miscellaneous topics:
>
>1- When did "Powersoft" promise Mac, Solaris/SunOS, HP-UX, and AIX
 ports
>of PowerBuilder? (Answer: 3 years ago!) When did they deliver?
>(Answer: Not yet! And not anytime soon.)
>2- Does S-Designor generate or reverse engineer PowerBuilder
 applications?
>(Answer: No!) Does S-Designor do anything more than simple table
>modeling? (Answer: No! You'd be MUCH better off with Designer/2000
 or
>LogicWorks' ERWin.)
>3- Is PowerBuilder an independent entity? (Answer: Judge for
 yourself.)
>Do PowerBuilder executives participate in managing Sybase? (Answer:
 Yes.)
>Do Sybase executives participate in managing PowerBuilder? (Answer:
 Yes.)
>Can the sales force sell both products? (Answer: Yes.) Is the head
 of
>marketing responsible for both companies? (Answer: Yes.) When
 "Powersoft"
>employees get stock options, what company are those stock options
 issued
>for? (Answer: Sybase.) Why is "Powersoft" so scared of being linked
 to
>Sybase? (Answer: Well, they used to claim that no tool from a
 database
>company could be open, and now they don't want to be caught in that
 lie.
>And they used to claim that Sybase couldn't handle a tools business
 (look
>at what happened to SQR, Deft, and the $100,000,000 acquisition
 several
>years ago of Gain).)
>4- Did Francisco Casas refute any of my opinions? (Answer: Not in my
 mind.)
>Did Francisco Casas respond to most of the previous issues raised?
 (Answer:
>No.) Does this mean that there is no possible refutation of these
 opinions?
>(Answer: Judge for yourself.)
>
>>In <dbmooreDByz5y.Dp5_at_netcom.com> dbmoore_at_netcom.com (Dennis Moore)
>>writes:
>>>
>>>Most of your response is so funny I couldn't stop laughing! Here
 are
 a few
>>>answers for you.
>>>
>>>In article <3uiafn$7uh_at_ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> you write:
>>>>Just your "humble opinion!?" Where do you get this stuff from
 Dennis?
>>>
>>>Well, I've been in the industry for 10 years, I've got good
 contacts,
>>>I talk to the industry analysts and press, ...
>>>
>>>>Let me address a few points:
>>>>
>>>> 1) Powersoft's commitment to support its current installed base
>>>> and to remain database neutral.
>>>> 2) Some truths that Dennis does not tell you about Oracle's
>>>> products.
>>>>
>>>>SDP is a subsidiary of Powersoft's. Until this week the Sybase
 sales  

>>>>force did not even have the rights to sell S-Designer, only the
>>>>Powersoft and SDP sales forces were able to sell S-Designer. Now,
 if
>>>>SDP was a Sybase subsidiary then why could only the Powersoft sales
>>>>force and Powersoft's subsidiaries sell S-Designer?
>>>
>>>Gee, is your point that not being able to sell it means
 independence,
 and
>>>being able to sell it means dependence? Can Slimebase reps sell it
 now or
>>>not (I think you answered that question already!)? Incidentally,
 allowing
>>>some reps to sell a product and others not to sell a product is
 called
>>>"sales force segmentation" -- it allows you to create specialist
 reps
 to
>>>focus on a product, without burdening your sales force with too much
>>>required training. For example, at Oracle, certain reps sell
 specialized
>>>products that the other reps can't sell. The same is true at
 Slimebase.
>>>
>>>>I want to iterate that Powersoft remains independent of Sybase.
>>>>Believe me, as a Sybase product manager, I'd rather they didn't.
>>>>However, for reasons (that are much more important than my selfish
>>>>reasons) Powersoft nees to be independent! Powersoft must continue
 

>>>>to support its installed base of Oracle, Informix and other
 database
>>>>customers. Additionally by Powersoft remaining database
 independent
>>>>it allows Sybase to penetrate accounts that it would otherwise not
>>>>have access to. This means that we will be able to take away
 Oracle
>>>>customers in the comming months and years.
>>>
>>>So the goal is to lock people into PowerNot, not to provide value.
>>>
>>>>I would also like to point people to read the August issue of DBMS
>>>>magazine. It features Powersoft's chairman Mitchell Kertzman.
 Yes,
>>>>Powersoft still has a chairman and a president since it does remain
>>>>independent of Sybase.
>>>
>>>I see. And is he on Slimebase's management committee? And what is
>>>Tom Herring's title these days? Oracle's sales force has a chairman
>>>and president (Ray Lane) -- does that mean the sales force is
 independent
>>>of the rest of the company?
>>>
>>>>Dennis, if I were you I wouldn't be too proud of Developer/2000 and
 

>>>>Designer/2000 as they require, get this: a machine with 32MB of RAM
>>>>and a 486 (preferably a Pentium according to Oracle's
 documentation).  

>>>>By contrast PowerBuilder and S-Designer fit nicely in 8MB of RAM on
>>>>a 386.
>>>
>>>Uh, Designer/2000 has a recommended system configuration similar to
>>>what you've described, but Developer/2000 does not. And as soon as
>>>S-Designor (that's the correct way to spell the product name, I
 believe)
>>>can do BPR diagrams, E-R diagrams, Data Flow diagrams, etc., server
>>>generation, code generation, application partitioning, model
 management
>>>and reverse engineering of code and servers with a secure, scalable
>>>repository all in 8 MB of RAM, let me know. And from interviewing
>>>many PowerBuilder developers, 8 MB RAM for development just doesn't
>>>cut it -- 16 MB on a Pentium is what many claim is a minimum, and a
>>>lot of people have been complaining on comp.soft-sys.powerbuilder
>>>that 8 MB at runtime is too little for their apps. I guess what
>>>you're saying is that Sybase cares more about hyped-up claims (i.e.
>>>"you only need 8 MB RAM!") than solid recommendations that customers
>>>can live with (i.e. "you really need a major system upgrade").
>>>
>>>>Further, PowerBuilder has proven itself as a database independent
>>>>GUI development tool. In addition, S-Designer has also proven
 itself
>>>>as a database independent CASE tool that generates schemas for
>>>>Sybase SQL Server, Oracle7, Informix, Gupta and others (30
 databases
>>>>in total). By contrast Oracle's Designer/2000 LOCKS CUSTOMERS in
 to
>>>>Oracle FOREVER.
>>>
>>>Interesting. I think you mean database irrelevant. I agree,
 Designer/2000
>>>and Developer/2000 support Oracle better than any other database,
 and
 they
>>>support Oracle far better than any other tool. But we have added
 support
>>>for MS SQL Server, Access, Rdb, DB2, Tuxedo, and even System 10 in
 the
>>>current release, in addition to ODBC and others. Our growth rate on
>>>Windows in the past year was over 200%, to about $75,000,000, as
 compared
>>>to Sybase's growth rate of less than 100%, to about $110,000,000
 (both
>>>figures for LICENSE SALES, not total revenues). You're still
 bigger,
 but
>>>we're taking share away from you, and we WILL pass
 Sybase/PowerSoft/SDP
>>>or whatever you want to call it within a year -- by delivering a
 better
>>>product, with more features, more usability, more productivity, more
>>>scalability, more portability (when did you announce that Mac and
 Motif
>>>and OS/2 port? Oh, three years ago!), more stability, more
 multi-lingual
>>>capability, and more upward compatibility. By delivering a better
 value
>>>we're making customers happier.
>>>
>>>>Oracle does not have the best interest of customers in mind.
 Oracle
>>>>still doesn't get it. They fail to realize that most large
 companies
>>>>have databases from multiple database vendors. In a survey that
>>>>Sybase performed a few years ago it found that on average Fortune
 500
>>>>companies have at databases from at least 5 vendors. PowerBuilder
>>>>and S-Designer bring you much closer to having your application
 access
>>>>your heterogenous database environments from within the
 application.
>>>>S-Designer lets you, the customers, generate schemas for over 30
>>>>databases. As mentioned Designer/2000 works with Oracle7 only!
>>>>How many Fortune 500 companies use Oracle only? Zero, none, nada!
>>>>How many referencable sites does Developer/2000 have running in a
>>>>heterogenous environment (against Sybase SQL Server, Microsoft SQL
>>>>Server, Informix, Ingres, DB2...)? Zero, none, nada!
>>>
>>>Interesting claims. You don't know the realities, apparently. We
 have
>>>plenty of such reference sites -- all a CUSTOMER has to do is ask
 her
>>>sales rep. We are making our products more open, but let's look at
 the
>>>facts. Today, you can FORCE a PowerNot application to talk to
 multiple
>>>databases, but PowerBuilder doesn't do anything for you except allow
 the
>>>conversation. Developer/2000 can actually adjust for differences in
 the
>>>semantics of the underlying database -- without any additional code.
>>>Things like switching from immediate (or pessimistic) locking
 against
 a
>>>database with row level locking to deferred (or optimistic) locking
>>>aganist a database with block level locking. Things like simulating
>>>"hold cursor open across transaction boundaries" for databases that
 don't
>>>support that. Can PowerBuilder do any of that? NOT.
>>>
>>>>Dennis (the product manage for Oracle's tools) paints an inaccurate
>>>>picture, yes some people may call it a picture full of lies.
 Dennis,  

>>>>I would have thought that since leaving Ingres you would have
>>>>maintained the same level of integrity. I see, however, that the
 lack
>>>>of integrity at Oracle is contagious and it has also infected you.
>>>>That is unfortunate, as mutual friends had led me to believe you
 were
>>>>of the highest integrity.
>>>>
>>>>Francisco
>>>
>>>Francisco, I don't know you. You may have met me, apparently, five
 years
>>>ago when I worked at Ingres. Perhaps Oracle was "the evil empire"
 five
>>>years ago (I really don't think so), but a lot can change in five
 years.
>>>For example, the people who work at a company make the company.
 Today
 at
>>>Oracle, people like Olivia Dillan, Fred Carter, Tom Bishop, Stewart
 Wilson,
>>>Marion Wong, Sylvia Perez, Wilson Drane, Annie Chen, and dozens of
 others
>>>who worked with me in development at Ingres now work in development
 at
>>>Oracle. Did we all magically turn into a**holes when we started
 working at
>>>Oracle?
>>>
>>>Oracle did not get to be a 3 billion dollar company by not
 understanding
>>>our customers, and working to give them good value and great
 products.
>>>In the past five years, Larry Ellison and Ray Lane have reinvented
 the
>>>company, dedicating it to delivering great customer service, not the
 hype
>>>and lies that Sybase and ALL it's divisions generate.
>>>
>>>>In <dbmooreDBx2s4.79M_at_netcom.com> dbmoore_at_netcom.com (Dennis Moore)
>>>>writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>PowerSoft did not acquire SDP, SA (the makers of S-Designor),
 Sybase
 did.
>>>>>Sybase also acquired PowerSoft previously. They are not
 independent
 companies,
>>>>>they are divisions of Sybase. Sybase had to acquire a CASE tool
 because
>>>>>companies are finding that it is impossible to build sophisticated
 client/server
>>>>>applications using first generation tools stuck in one life cycle
 stage, like
>>>>>PowerBuilder. In addition, since Oracle started taking away
 Sybase's
 market
>>>>>in both databases (with Oracle7) and tools (with Developer/2000),
 and
 recently
>>>>>also start shipping great CASE tools (with Designer/2000), Sybase
 had
 to buy
>>>>>a company to keep up. Of course, like with their first CASE tool
 acquisition
>>>>>(Deft, a few years ago, which is not even shipped anymore), they
 overpaid for
>>>>>a functionally weak product. The acquisition cost was about
 US$20MM,
 which
>>>>>caused Sybase to have a second straight quarter of losses. If you
 use
>>>>>LogicWorks' ERWin with PowerBuilder, expect a visit from the
 Sybase/PowerSoft
>>>>>rep trying to get you to swap to S-Designor. S-Designor will be
 integrated
>>>>>with PowerBuilder within a few years (probably around the same
 time
 the Mac
>>>>>and Unix ports ship ;-), so I bet the other CASE vendors find out
 soon
 just
>>>>>how "open" Sybase intends to be with PowerBuilder. Just MHO ...
>>>>>
>>>>>In article <itkennet.7.002477BF_at_polyu.edu.hk>
 itkennet_at_polyu.edu.hk
 (Kenneth Yuen) writes:
>>>>>>Recently I have looked at the PB WWW page and found that
 Powersoft
 established
>>>>>>a Designer-division. Also, Powersoft holds an official course
 for
 S-designer
>>>>>>for PB. Does anyone know further information?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Kenneth
>>>>>>

 ---------------+------------------------------+---------------------
 


>>>>>>| Kenneth Yuen  | itkennet_at_polyu.edu.hk        |

>>>>>>| The H.K. PolyU| HungHom, Kln., Hong Kong. |
 Fax:852-2356-7918  

>>>>>>| | http://www.polyu.edu.hk |
     

>>>>>>

 ---------------+------------------------------+---------------------
 


>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>-- 


>>>>>-- Dennis Moore, Oracle Corp.

>>>>>dbmoore_at_oracle.com	<- Office (preferred for e-mail)

>>>>>dbmoore_at_netcom.com	<- Home (preferred for living ;-)

>>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>-- 

>>>-- Dennis Moore, Oracle Corp.

>>>dbmoore_at_oracle.com	<- Office (preferred for e-mail)

>>>dbmoore_at_netcom.com	<- Home (preferred for living ;-)