Re: SYBASE acquired PowerSoft AND SDP, was Re: PowerBuilder acquires S-designer?

Ok, let's get down to the business of solving customer problems and to correcting Dennis' statements (again!). The points are addressed in the following order:

• Oracle's ethics
• Oracle’s resource requirements
• Oracle's so called open approach
• Powersoft independence (again!)
• Miscellaneous topics raised by Dennis

This is my last response to Dennis, as he can not rise above the emotional mud slinging that is so typical of Oracle.

ORACLE'S ETHICS
Let me say this. You, as a product manager have the responsibility to behave ethically and with credibility in the eyes of anyone that may be your prospect or customer. As a product manager you carry more weight in forming the perception of your employer. The demeanor you've displayed and the name calling you resort to, speaks volumes about your integrity and business ethics, and those of your employer.

If you want to see a posting of an ethical person. Look at my response to posting on "RE: Need opinions on SQLServer." Someone trying to be helpful posted an article on Oracle, Sybase and Microsoft. Unfortunately, that article failed to mention features, in all three products, that are beneficial to customers. I've pointed out some of the ommited features in Sybase, Microsoft and, yes, Oracle. At Sybase (and it subsidiaries) our intent is to ensure that customers make informed deicision based on facts, not on the name calling you've resorted to.  

NO, I DON'T THINK that the other ex-Ingres people turned into a term YOU came up with (see Dennis' response). I never brought up any other individual in my response other than you (whose level of integrity and business ethics can be clearly judged by your response). By the way, we've never met, but we do have common friends and I was led to believe that you were an ethical, credible, and professional person. It is unfortunate that you have proved them wrong.

ORACLE'S RESOURCE REQUIREMENTS
According to Oracle's own documentation the MINIMUM requirements are:

Product                   RAM  Machine
----------------------- ------ -------
Oracle Designer/2000:    16MB   486/33  /* Can't remember if its 32MB.
Oracle Developer/2000:   16MB   486/33     So, I'll put 16MB for 
Oracle Personal Oracle:   8MB   486/33     Oracle Designer/2000 */
                        ------
TOTAL                    40MB
                        ======

By contrast the recommended MINIMUM requirements for PowerBuilder, S-Designor and Watcom SQL (a Powersoft product) are 8MB of RAM on a 386/33.

The price difference in hardware requirements is:

    40MB - 8MB = 32MB _at_ $45/MB = $1,440

This doesn't even take into account the additional disk space or the more powerful CPU requirements of Oracle.

POWERSOFT INDEPENDENCE
You've raised the issue of Powersoft independence. Let me say that we've structured our sales forces to incent Powersoft to remain database independent. The fact that you would like to have customer's think otherwise stresses your desperation by creating what the Oracle sales force normally calls FUD (Fear/Uncertainty/Dought) in the mind of customers in order to sell your products. This is a technique that Oracle shows its sales force during sales training.

I'll give you another example of how independent Powersoft is. When the merger was complete Powersoft had very early versions of Microsoft's Starfigher. Needless to say, Sybase wanted to see it. Powersoft was under non-disclosure with Microsoft and would not share what they knew about Starfighter. Another, is that Powersoft has received a lot of information on OLE-DB. Again, they can not share that information with Sybase. What this means is that Powersoft will provide OLE-DB support for Microsoft SQL Server 6.0 prior to providing OLE-DB support to any Sybase database server.

Another point that will ease customer's mind in that Powersoft remains database neutral is the fact that prior to the aquisition Powersoft's customer base was 40% non-SQL Server accounts. Seven months after the aquisition Powersoft's customer base of non-SQL Server accounts is now up to 50%. We at Sybase are commited to maintaining the independence of Powersoft. This trend clearly illustrates that as Powersoft adds support to more databases (over 40 now) the SQL Server portion of Powersoft's sales becomes a smaller percentage. By the way those figures include both Sybase and Microsoft SQL Server.

ORACLE'S SO CALLED OPEN APPROACH
First let's compare apples to apples. Oracle can not possibly have a huge number of referenceable sites (contrary to Dennis' claims) using Sybase SQL Server and Microsoft SQL Server, as Developer/2000 just came out to the market. Do you call support to a handful of databases open? By contrast, PowerBuilder has been supporting multiple database vendors for several years. PowerBuilder supports over 40 different databases.

Designer/2000 does not support multiple databases, it only supports Oracle. So much for Oracle's open approach. S-Designor, by contrast generates databases for over 40 databases. Once you use Designer/2000 you are LOCKED IN TO ORACLE. By contrast, the models in S-Designer are available for customers to use on over 40 databases.

I'll give you another example. Let's talk about gateways. Oracle claims to be open, yet they require you to purchase their RDBMS in order to make use of their gateways. By contrast, MDI's gateways (a subsidiary of Sybase) don't require that Sybase's database be used. Over 20% of MDI's customers don't even use Sybase SQL Server. For example, a few weeks ago a college of mine was involved in a sales call with a customer that needed to move data between IMS, ADABAS and Oracle. We sold them the gateways to do this. Did the MDI sales rep try to sell them Sybase SQL Server? Nope. There is no need! Our gateways are open, just like all our other products. Oracle is not an open environment!

MISCCELANEOUS TOPICS
You asked about Tom Herring. For those of you not familiar with influential magazines in the US, there's a magazine titled “Upside”. Upside is one of the bibles in the computer industry and regularly performs profiles on industry luminaries such as Andy Grove, Bill Gates and others. Upside just named Tom Herring the best marketing person in the software industry. Sybase was looking for a VP of Marketing so we asked Tom Herring to take on that role. Why would we ask anyone other than the best to take on that job? In <dbmooreDByz5y.Dp5_at_netcom.com> dbmoore_at_netcom.com (Dennis Moore) writes:
>
>Most of your response is so funny I couldn't stop laughing! Here are
 a few
>answers for you.
>
>In article <3uiafn$7uh_at_ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> you write:
>>Just your "humble opinion!?" Where do you get this stuff from
 Dennis?
>
>Well, I've been in the industry for 10 years, I've got good contacts,
>I talk to the industry analysts and press, ...
>
>>Let me address a few points:
>>
>> 1) Powersoft's commitment to support its current installed base
>> and to remain database neutral.
>> 2) Some truths that Dennis does not tell you about Oracle's
>> products.
>>
>>SDP is a subsidiary of Powersoft's. Until this week the Sybase sales
 

>>force did not even have the rights to sell S-Designer, only the
>>Powersoft and SDP sales forces were able to sell S-Designer. Now, if
>>SDP was a Sybase subsidiary then why could only the Powersoft sales
>>force and Powersoft's subsidiaries sell S-Designer?
>
>Gee, is your point that not being able to sell it means independence,
 and
>being able to sell it means dependence? Can Slimebase reps sell it
 now or
>not (I think you answered that question already!)? Incidentally,
 allowing
>some reps to sell a product and others not to sell a product is called
>"sales force segmentation" -- it allows you to create specialist reps
 to
>focus on a product, without burdening your sales force with too much
>required training. For example, at Oracle, certain reps sell
 specialized
>products that the other reps can't sell. The same is true at
 Slimebase.
>
>>I want to iterate that Powersoft remains independent of Sybase.
>>Believe me, as a Sybase product manager, I'd rather they didn't.
>>However, for reasons (that are much more important than my selfish
>>reasons) Powersoft nees to be independent! Powersoft must continue
>>to support its installed base of Oracle, Informix and other database
>>customers. Additionally by Powersoft remaining database independent
>>it allows Sybase to penetrate accounts that it would otherwise not
>>have access to. This means that we will be able to take away Oracle
>>customers in the comming months and years.
>
>So the goal is to lock people into PowerNot, not to provide value.
>
>>I would also like to point people to read the August issue of DBMS
>>magazine. It features Powersoft's chairman Mitchell Kertzman. Yes,
>>Powersoft still has a chairman and a president since it does remain
>>independent of Sybase.
>
>I see. And is he on Slimebase's management committee? And what is
>Tom Herring's title these days? Oracle's sales force has a chairman
>and president (Ray Lane) -- does that mean the sales force is
 independent
>of the rest of the company?
>
>>Dennis, if I were you I wouldn't be too proud of Developer/2000 and
>>Designer/2000 as they require, get this: a machine with 32MB of RAM
>>and a 486 (preferably a Pentium according to Oracle's documentation).
 

>>By contrast PowerBuilder and S-Designer fit nicely in 8MB of RAM on
>>a 386.
>
>Uh, Designer/2000 has a recommended system configuration similar to
>what you've described, but Developer/2000 does not. And as soon as
>S-Designor (that's the correct way to spell the product name, I
 believe)
>can do BPR diagrams, E-R diagrams, Data Flow diagrams, etc., server
>generation, code generation, application partitioning, model
 management
>and reverse engineering of code and servers with a secure, scalable
>repository all in 8 MB of RAM, let me know. And from interviewing
>many PowerBuilder developers, 8 MB RAM for development just doesn't
>cut it -- 16 MB on a Pentium is what many claim is a minimum, and a
>lot of people have been complaining on comp.soft-sys.powerbuilder
>that 8 MB at runtime is too little for their apps. I guess what
>you're saying is that Sybase cares more about hyped-up claims (i.e.
>"you only need 8 MB RAM!") than solid recommendations that customers
>can live with (i.e. "you really need a major system upgrade").
>
>>Further, PowerBuilder has proven itself as a database independent
>>GUI development tool. In addition, S-Designer has also proven itself
>>as a database independent CASE tool that generates schemas for
>>Sybase SQL Server, Oracle7, Informix, Gupta and others (30 databases
>>in total). By contrast Oracle's Designer/2000 LOCKS CUSTOMERS in to
>>Oracle FOREVER.
>
>Interesting. I think you mean database irrelevant. I agree,
 Designer/2000
>and Developer/2000 support Oracle better than any other database, and
 they
>support Oracle far better than any other tool. But we have added
 support
>for MS SQL Server, Access, Rdb, DB2, Tuxedo, and even System 10 in the
>current release, in addition to ODBC and others. Our growth rate on
>Windows in the past year was over 200%, to about $75,000,000, as
 compared
>to Sybase's growth rate of less than 100%, to about $110,000,000 (both
>figures for LICENSE SALES, not total revenues). You're still bigger,
 but
>we're taking share away from you, and we WILL pass
 Sybase/PowerSoft/SDP
>or whatever you want to call it within a year -- by delivering a
 better
>product, with more features, more usability, more productivity, more
>scalability, more portability (when did you announce that Mac and
 Motif
>and OS/2 port? Oh, three years ago!), more stability, more
 multi-lingual
>capability, and more upward compatibility. By delivering a better
 value
>we're making customers happier.
>
>>Oracle does not have the best interest of customers in mind. Oracle
>>still doesn't get it. They fail to realize that most large companies
>>have databases from multiple database vendors. In a survey that
>>Sybase performed a few years ago it found that on average Fortune 500
>>companies have at databases from at least 5 vendors. PowerBuilder
>>and S-Designer bring you much closer to having your application
 access
>>your heterogenous database environments from within the application.
>>S-Designer lets you, the customers, generate schemas for over 30
>>databases. As mentioned Designer/2000 works with Oracle7 only!
>>How many Fortune 500 companies use Oracle only? Zero, none, nada!
>>How many referencable sites does Developer/2000 have running in a
>>heterogenous environment (against Sybase SQL Server, Microsoft SQL
>>Server, Informix, Ingres, DB2...)? Zero, none, nada!
>
>Interesting claims. You don't know the realities, apparently. We
 have
>plenty of such reference sites -- all a CUSTOMER has to do is ask her
>sales rep. We are making our products more open, but let's look at
 the
>facts. Today, you can FORCE a PowerNot application to talk to
 multiple
>databases, but PowerBuilder doesn't do anything for you except allow
 the
>conversation. Developer/2000 can actually adjust for differences in
 the
>semantics of the underlying database -- without any additional code.
>Things like switching from immediate (or pessimistic) locking against
 a
>database with row level locking to deferred (or optimistic) locking
>aganist a database with block level locking. Things like simulating
>"hold cursor open across transaction boundaries" for databases that
 don't
>support that. Can PowerBuilder do any of that? NOT.
>
>>Dennis (the product manage for Oracle's tools) paints an inaccurate
>>picture, yes some people may call it a picture full of lies. Dennis,
 

>>I would have thought that since leaving Ingres you would have
>>maintained the same level of integrity. I see, however, that the
 lack
>>of integrity at Oracle is contagious and it has also infected you.
>>That is unfortunate, as mutual friends had led me to believe you were
>>of the highest integrity.
>>
>>Francisco
>
>Francisco, I don't know you. You may have met me, apparently, five
 years
>ago when I worked at Ingres. Perhaps Oracle was "the evil empire"
 five
>years ago (I really don't think so), but a lot can change in five
 years.
>For example, the people who work at a company make the company. Today
 at
>Oracle, people like Olivia Dillan, Fred Carter, Tom Bishop, Stewart
 Wilson,
>Marion Wong, Sylvia Perez, Wilson Drane, Annie Chen, and dozens of
 others
>who worked with me in development at Ingres now work in development at
>Oracle. Did we all magically turn into a**holes when we started
 working at
>Oracle?
>
>Oracle did not get to be a 3 billion dollar company by not
 understanding
>our customers, and working to give them good value and great products.
>In the past five years, Larry Ellison and Ray Lane have reinvented the
>company, dedicating it to delivering great customer service, not the
 hype
>and lies that Sybase and ALL it's divisions generate.
>
>>In <dbmooreDBx2s4.79M_at_netcom.com> dbmoore_at_netcom.com (Dennis Moore)
>>writes:
>>>
>>>PowerSoft did not acquire SDP, SA (the makers of S-Designor), Sybase
 did.
>>>Sybase also acquired PowerSoft previously. They are not independent
 companies,
>>>they are divisions of Sybase. Sybase had to acquire a CASE tool
 because
>>>companies are finding that it is impossible to build sophisticated
 client/server
>>>applications using first generation tools stuck in one life cycle
 stage, like
>>>PowerBuilder. In addition, since Oracle started taking away
 Sybase's
 market
>>>in both databases (with Oracle7) and tools (with Developer/2000),
 and
 recently
>>>also start shipping great CASE tools (with Designer/2000), Sybase
 had
 to buy
>>>a company to keep up. Of course, like with their first CASE tool
 acquisition
>>>(Deft, a few years ago, which is not even shipped anymore), they
 overpaid for
>>>a functionally weak product. The acquisition cost was about
 US$20MM,
 which
>>>caused Sybase to have a second straight quarter of losses. If you
 use
>>>LogicWorks' ERWin with PowerBuilder, expect a visit from the
 Sybase/PowerSoft
>>>rep trying to get you to swap to S-Designor. S-Designor will be
 integrated
>>>with PowerBuilder within a few years (probably around the same time
 the Mac
>>>and Unix ports ship ;-), so I bet the other CASE vendors find out
 soon
 just
>>>how "open" Sybase intends to be with PowerBuilder. Just MHO ...
>>>
>>>In article <itkennet.7.002477BF_at_polyu.edu.hk> itkennet_at_polyu.edu.hk
 (Kenneth Yuen) writes:
>>>>Recently I have looked at the PB WWW page and found that Powersoft
 established
>>>>a Designer-division. Also, Powersoft holds an official course for
 S-designer
>>>>for PB. Does anyone know further information?
>>>>
>>>>Thanks.
>>>>
>>>>Kenneth
>>>>

 ---------------+------------------------------+---------------------
 


>>>>| Kenneth Yuen  | itkennet_at_polyu.edu.hk        |

>>>>| The H.K. PolyU| HungHom, Kln., Hong Kong. |
 Fax:852-2356-7918  

>>>>| | http://www.polyu.edu.hk |
   

>>>>

 ---------------+------------------------------+---------------------
 


>>>

>>>

>>>-- 


>>>-- Dennis Moore, Oracle Corp.

>>>dbmoore_at_oracle.com	<- Office (preferred for e-mail)

>>>dbmoore_at_netcom.com	<- Home (preferred for living ;-)