Re: I'm seeking for OCP certification

> Well thought out and well written.
>
> I still wouldn't compare moving my retirement funds to your account
> the equivalent of someone dying but it would really piss me off. heh
> I have to concede you the point. I wasn't trying to defend
> incompetent DBAs just making a distinction.

I think the former employees of Enron, however, could speak volumes on this subject.

> You lost me when you mentioned attorneys though. The only good
> lawayer is a...Well you get the idea. ;-)

Is the one that keeps your sorry bottom out of the slammer. It is the other guy's attorney that is always the problem. But yes I understand.

> As far as the OCP goes, I personally found the tests to be accurate.
> It's the scoring that makes it too easy. And I would still recommend
> it for those wanting to get started or those with some free time.
> We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

I'd have few problems with the OCP content if they advertised it as a basic learning course. I am 100% in favor of education and wouldn't hold a grudge against Oracle or anyone else for marketing education classes.

What gets me upset is when they label it "certification" giving the impression that somehow those that have it have some value to bring to the workforce that those who don't have it lack.

The truth is that 1 year of real experience trumps every OCP certification if one assumes that the person with the hands-on experience has actually used SQL*Plus.

> I like your ideas on testing but it sounds a lot like the OCM. Two
> issues:
>
> 1. If we are going for no profit, Oracle wouldn't (or shouldn't) be
> the one to give the test.

Amen and lets go back to the medical analogy. Medical schools give diplomas. State's license physicians. But, in the U.S., the organizations that "certify" surgeons are non-profits run by experts in the field.

Take a look at the following for example:

http://www.abms.org
http://www.abu.org
http://www.abderm.org

For each one look at their list of Board members and directors.

They are some of the most prestigious and well respected experts in their profession.

> We would need to create a beauraracy to do
> the certs. I guess someone like ACM could do it but it would be a
> mammoth undertaking to hit all of the specialties. I would be willing
> to pay more in annual dues to support it though. Especially if there
> were grants for deserving people. I think it would be way too
> expensive for most people though.

I think not. Once again I refer you to how physicians do it through medical boards and how attorney's do it with the Bar Association. DBAs should be certified by DBAs. The first Board of Directors of the still theoretical "International Board of Oracle Professions" should be staffed with the likes of Jonathan Lewis, Dave Ensor, Tim Gorman, Connor McDonald, Cary Millsap (no slight intended for the many others I could have named but didn't).

> 2. That really does sound like the OCM. What certs would be
> available for the junior and somewhat experienced?

None. There are no certifications for those that didn't make it through law school or medical school and if certification is supposed to mean something to the employer and the employed it must mean something.

And would there be a lot of current DBAs that wouldn't make it? Truly I would hope so. Certification should not be part of a full employment program. Few but more competent DBAs could easily handle the real load. Industry would save money and the DBAs would make a lot more money just as surgeons make more than general practitioners.

> There should be
> tiers (which does not exist now). The current OCA, OCP, OCM is crap.
> It should be re-developed for Junior, Senior and Journeyman and have
> work experience requirements and not training requirements. Although
> training might be used as part of work experience (not one to one).
> I think that would put it more in line with an apprenticeship paradigm
> and give it more meaning. I belive mentoring can solve more than
> certs can.

I fully agree and I would support mentoring as being one of the requirements for certification.

> But I have to agree the curent system isn't the best. I know 2 people
> with the OCM who know absolutely nothing beyond what was required to
> get the OCM. I would be scared to put them on a production system.
>
> Lewis

My point exactly. Which brings me to my final point about real certification. Get an OCP and prove incompetent and you still have the OCP. Become an attorney and prove incompetent and the bar association can disbar you. Become a surgeon and prove incompetent and the surgical boards (again speaking from knowledge in the US) will remove 100% of your ability to practice anything other than general medicine and likely your privileges to ever enter a hospital again except as a patient or visitor.

I'm not saying the enforcement is air-tight. But the point is that it exists. And it gives the certifications meaning.

-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
damorgan_at_x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)