Re: So what if 8i is outta support ?

From: Howard J. Rogers <hjr_at_dizwell.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 05:28:38 +1000
Message-Id: <417c025a$0$21982$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>

DA Morgan wrote:

> Howard J. Rogers wrote:
>

>>>1. Separate into 2 piles ... possible and ridiculous
>> 
>> 
>> Not what I did. I remember reading them all and thinking, "God what a
>> boring fart" and "Hmmm. Could be moderately interesting". Sadly, I never
>> had the epiphanous "I want this one!". But if you can't find the time to
>> assess all aplicants, then you aren't doing your job properly, or you
>> aren't phrasing the job advert carefully enough to limit replies to the
>> vaguely plausible.

>
> I put out an advertisement that said "MUST have 9i or 10g RAC
> experience." And the word "MUST" was in caps. Do you think that
> discouraged those who could barely spell the acronym? Maybe in Oz
> but no in America.

I don't want to prolong this, but the point is that I would not have put in 'MUST have X' in the first place. That is limiting the pool of surprising talent you might get. Of course, there is a place for version specificity, too. Depends on the job, naturally. But the point of this part of the thread was that it is not necessarily very sensible to be so precise in your wants.

[snip]

>

>>>7. Start telephone interviews with the possibles.
>> 
>> Nope. The telephone is a very artifical medium. I want to see the guy's
>> facial expressions. I want to *see* his (or her) enthusiasm.

>
> Don't have time to do face-to-face with 15-20 people. Do you?

Yes, actually. If I've taken on the responsibility of employing someone, I'd better damn well make sure I discharge my responsibilities properly.

>>>8. Bring in for face-to-face the best 3 to 5.
>> 
>> Started with these. Wouldn't have missed it for the world. Remember Maria
>> Callas: "Even the humblest student can teach you something".

>
> They do at the University: Almost every class.
>

>>>9. Make an often difficult choice.
>> 
>> Agreed. But fundamentally, when one knows, one knows.

>
> Agreed.
>

>>>10. Hope you made a good one.
>> 
>> Disagree. Once the decision has been made, it's inevitable and
>> irrevocably a good decision (otherwise *you* deserve to be sacked).

>
> Perhaps. But in my case I would have to sack myself. I am happy with the
> vast majority of my decisions. But everyone makes mistakes from
> time-to-time.
>

>>>Not once in 3 years have I ever felt a need to go back to the discard
>>>piles because I didn't find what I needed.
>> 
>> I think that's sad. I well remember my boss, as we walked into the
>> confirmation interview, saying to me "Howard, are you totally insane? Are
>> you really saying you want me to interview this person. There is
>> *nothing* on his CV worth commenting on. You're joking, right?" And me
>> replying, "Trust me Chris. This one is going to be worth it".
>> 
>> And when I left the company about two years later, he got my job.
>> 
>> As I said, best call I ever made.

>
> Or perhaps the worst. ;-)

No, the best. I left to come to Australia. But I'd built that department up from nothing, and I wouldn't have been happy to see it trashed by incompetence. In this guy's hands, I knew it would be fine.

> The point is to find the right person ... and in my mind ... to reward
> those that take their profession seriously. Anyone today working in 8i
> and not studying 10g is a fraud. Their employer may not have it but
> there is no excuse for them not to.
>

>>>But be honest here ... given two people with equally good experience ...
>>>one with 8i, 9i, and 10g experience and one with 8i ... and I said
>>>equally good ... why would you pick the person with only 8i?  Ever?
>> 
>> Because I would want someone who doesn't post incoherent crap in a
>> newsgroup as so many here do. Mastery on one's language, written and
>> spoken, counts a lot. Then I want someone who has imagination. Who has an
>> open mind, who cares about facts and the precise documentation of facts.
>> On top of that, I would want someone who *cared*. Who'd be enthusiastic,
>> and put the customer first. And none of that comes necessarily with
>> Oracle experience. So I'll balance said experience with those other
>> qualities.

>
> Granted all of the above but you are not taking seriously what I wrote
> above. I said "Given two people that are equally good." If they are
> equal except for 8i vs 9i or 10g your argument goes away

I am taking it seriously... only to dismiss the idea. Because no two people are ever "equally as good". There is always a fine mix of plusses and minuses, and it's a job of weighing things up, not spotting equalities.

>> Fundamentally, I know I can teach anybody anything about Oracle in about
>> three weeks.

>
> Fundamentally I don't believe you. There are some lessons only taught by
> falling on one's face and getting a bloody nose.

I didn't say I could teach them about life, or about being a DBA. I said I could teach them about Oracle. I don't need someone claiming to know version X really well, in other words, because I can teach them that.

> While you may be able
> to teach much ... you can't teach some lessons. And more importantly, if
> you have knowledge to impart ... the person that has shown initiative
> and tried to learn 10g will be the most likely to be hungry to learn
> more.

Profoundly disagree. The people who have rushed to adopt and/or deploy 10g are like the myriad clients around the south pacific who have implemented RAC... because it's sexy, Oracle's pushing it, and it must be good because it's the latest, greatest thing. And never mind whether it's actually appropriate. That is the last mindset I'd want to employ. I'd much rather talk to someone who spent three months (or whatever) investigating how locally managed tablespaces work, internally, block dumping as s/he went, on version 8i than someone who has read the '10g beta new features available-on-the-day-of-the-software's-release' book.

Would I expect someone to know at least what version Oracle is up to? Check. Would I expect someone to be able to talk in vaguely coherent terms about the alphabet soup of new features in that product? Check. Would I expect them to know anything very much about them at all? Absolutely not, and I'd be a bit concerned if they did that they were 'feature chasers' not deep thinkers.  

> And that goes for new recruits, too. I don't need people who

>> think they don't need my services. But I do need people who bring an
>> energy and an enthusiasm that might be otherwise lacking.

>
> And there is some reason why someone that stopped learning at 8i might
> bring more energy and enthusiasm to the job than someone that downloaded
> 9i and 10g would? Please explain.

I managed to get my hands on 10g, Daniel, after kind souls here mailed me copies. Getting hold of it is harder than you might like to think about in your broadband-enabled world. Then, too, not everyone has the computing resources to install the latest and greatest of everything. And some people (I know, this took me by surprise, too) have lives to lead that don't involve sitting at a computer all evening at home, as well as all day at work.

If their employer happens to have been stuck on an old version of Oracle, that does not *necessarily* rule them out of consideration, as you seem to think it should.

> The only reason I can think that might
> be true is pure desparation because they woke up one morning and found
> that they were nearly unemployable.

Well, again: that's the entire point of this part of the thread being missed. That you think this way is not in dispute, because that much was evident from your first comments on the matter. That it is or might be sad/short-sighted/whatever so to dismiss large swathes of the perfectly-employable is the issue.

> For those where I place employees ... the primary criterion is "can this
> person be productive and do the job." If they bathe and don't slur their
> words so much the better. But no one wants me to show up with a great
> guy to go drinking with but who is not substantially superior to their
> current employees.

I seems you simply expect them to walk through the door fully formed as exemplars of experience and insight. I prefer to make them that way with time, experience and my valuable mentoring skills.

But we should probably just leave it there.

HJR Received on Sun Oct 24 2004 - 14:28:38 CDT