Re: So what if 8i is outta support ?

From: DA Morgan <damorgan_at_x.washington.edu>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 11:05:06 -0700
Message-ID: <1098641055.308411@yasure>

Howard J. Rogers wrote:

>>1. Separate into 2 piles ... possible and ridiculous

>
>
> Not what I did. I remember reading them all and thinking, "God what a boring
> fart" and "Hmmm. Could be moderately interesting". Sadly, I never had the
> epiphanous "I want this one!". But if you can't find the time to assess all
> aplicants, then you aren't doing your job properly, or you aren't phrasing
> the job advert carefully enough to limit replies to the vaguely plausible.

I put out an advertisement that said "MUST have 9i or 10g RAC experience." And the word "MUST" was in caps. Do you think that discouraged those who could barely spell the acronym? Maybe in Oz but no in America.

>>2. Throw away the ridiculous

>
> I remember thinking that lives were on the end of my decision, so I went
> back through my discard pile. I only managed to resurrect 3 CVs (and they
> didn't get the job) -but at least my conscience was clear.

I know they are. I fully understand the implications of tossing a resume into the circular file. But I am looking for an employee not running a charity. It is up to them to keep their skills at the top of the profession just as I expect my doctor and attorney and accountant to do.
>

>>3. Separate into 2 piles ... those with the skill and posers

>
> I seem to recall separating the pile into those with no hope of developing,
> versus those who might.

Posers are those that don't really have the skill be claim to. For example resumes where they claim to be, and I kid you not, experts with Oracle, DB2, Sybase, Informix, SQL Server, C/C++, Java, C#, J#, and MS Office. And yes they always get tossed because they are either liars or fools.
>

>>4. Throw away the posers

>
> I never threw anyone away without thinking that they were people.

I know they are people. But if applying for an Oracle job that asks for a senior developer you'd bloody well better be able to answer the following question:

"What SQL statement would you use to identify duplicate records in a table?"

Want the stack of resumes from those "Experts" that couldn't? It will shock you. Once again ... you experience in your country may differ.

>>5. Separate into 2 piles ... those with current skill set and those that
>>need training.

>
> Fair enough.

Thanks.

>>6. If the first pile is big enough, and these days it always is, throw
>>away the trainees.

>
> Nope. I well recall having to weigh up whether the people who came with a
> skill set came with an attitude too. I wanted open-minded people. People
> who would learn and (more importantly, perhaps) be enthusiastic as they did
> it. Quite often, the skilled, trained know-it-alls came across as arrogant
> bastards that needed taking down a notch or three, which it was my pleasure
> to do in interview.
>
> Those people that said "I don't know. But here's how I would go about
> finding out" stood tall in the entire process.

But only if you couldn't find the person with the right skills and a good attitude. And these days that is not much of a problem.

>>7. Start telephone interviews with the possibles.

>
> Nope. The telephone is a very artifical medium. I want to see the guy's
> facial expressions. I want to *see* his (or her) enthusiasm.

Don't have time to do face-to-face with 15-20 people. Do you?

>>8. Bring in for face-to-face the best 3 to 5.

>
> Started with these. Wouldn't have missed it for the world. Remember Maria
> Callas: "Even the humblest student can teach you something".

They do at the University: Almost every class.

>>9. Make an often difficult choice.

>
> Agreed. But fundamentally, when one knows, one knows.

Agreed.

>>10. Hope you made a good one.

>
> Disagree. Once the decision has been made, it's inevitable and irrevocably a
> good decision (otherwise *you* deserve to be sacked).

Perhaps. But in my case I would have to sack myself. I am happy with the vast majority of my decisions. But everyone makes mistakes from time-to-time.

>>Not once in 3 years have I ever felt a need to go back to the discard
>>piles because I didn't find what I needed.

>
> I think that's sad. I well remember my boss, as we walked into the
> confirmation interview, saying to me "Howard, are you totally insane? Are
> you really saying you want me to interview this person. There is *nothing*
> on his CV worth commenting on. You're joking, right?" And me replying,
> "Trust me Chris. This one is going to be worth it".
>
> And when I left the company about two years later, he got my job.
>
> As I said, best call I ever made.

Or perhaps the worst. ;-)

The point is to find the right person ... and in my mind ... to reward those that take their profession seriously. Anyone today working in 8i and not studying 10g is a fraud. Their employer may not have it but there is no excuse for them not to.

>>But be honest here ... given two people with equally good experience ...
>>one with 8i, 9i, and 10g experience and one with 8i ... and I said
>>equally good ... why would you pick the person with only 8i?  Ever? 

>
> Because I would want someone who doesn't post incoherent crap in a newsgroup
> as so many here do. Mastery on one's language, written and spoken, counts a
> lot. Then I want someone who has imagination. Who has an open mind, who
> cares about facts and the precise documentation of facts. On top of that, I
> would want someone who *cared*. Who'd be enthusiastic, and put the customer
> first. And none of that comes necessarily with Oracle experience. So I'll
> balance said experience with those other qualities.

Granted all of the above but you are not taking seriously what I wrote above. I said "Given two people that are equally good." If they are equal except for 8i vs 9i or 10g your argument goes away

> Fundamentally, I know I can teach anybody anything about Oracle in about
> three weeks.

Fundamentally I don't believe you. There are some lessons only taught by falling on one's face and getting a bloody nose. While you may be able to teach much ... you can't teach some lessons. And more importantly, if you have knowledge to impart ... the person that has shown initiative and tried to learn 10g will be the most likely to be hungry to learn more.

  And that goes for new recruits, too. I don't need people who
> think they don't need my services. But I do need people who bring an energy
> and an enthusiasm that might be otherwise lacking.

And there is some reason why someone that stopped learning at 8i might bring more energy and enthusiasm to the job than someone that downloaded 9i and 10g would? Please explain. The only reason I can think that might be true is pure desparation because they woke up one morning and found that they were nearly unemployable.

>>And  
>>think of yourself here as an employer ... not a charity.

>
> See above. Every employment decision I've ever made has been on the basis
> that our customers will love this guy... because he isn't obviously, and
> from the moment he steps from his BMW, a complete wanker. Instead, he
> listens and learns with us, whilst yet simultaneously propelling us towards
> better knowledge of the product -a very tricky skillset to master, and one
> in which none of your CVs will indicate a prior history. And it's totally
> business, and no charity decision.
>
> Regards
> HJR
For those where I place employees ... the primary criterion is "can this person be productive and do the job." If they bathe and don't slur their words so much the better. But no one wants me to show up with a great guy to go drinking with but who is not substantially superior to their current employees.

-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
damorgan_at_x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)

Received on Sun Oct 24 2004 - 13:05:06 CDT