Re: Fed Up with being a DBA

I bit of snipping as this is getting longer and longer an longer ... with commentary interspersed.

Noons wrote:

>>With 10g on the market ... if one person understands regular expressions
>>and shredding XML into nested tables and the other doesn't guess who
>>gets the job.
>>
>>
>
>Regular expressions are nothing new. Anyone who has been working in Unix
>knows them only too well: they have been around for nearly 30 years now.
>I'd guess it wouldn't be a major hurdle for a Unix person to learn the
>Oracle version pronto. As for shredding XML, it's been there to play with
>in the XDK kits since 8i. Anyone that hasn't played with them, if nothing else
>to learn what the heck XML is all about, deserves a wallop.
>
>But you can bet the attitude from the "employers" is gonna be: if you don't know
>10G, then how can you possibly know about regexp or XML? Which is as wrong as it
>can get. But you can bet the purveyors of 10G certification will support and
>encourage that attitude...
>

You are correct about most of this but not about regular expressions. While those with a lot of UNIX experience may be familiar with them ... I'd be willing to bet, from my experience in the industry and teaching that far less than 40% of those that call themselves Oracle DBA or Oracle Developer would have clue what they are.

>>and build a database with DBMS_RLS, DDL triggers, bulk binding, etc. My
>>mother is not going to get the job. ;-) Oh well. Sorry mom.
>>
>>
>
>Well that is actually a very good subject. What is the point of having someone who
>can do all those things when the site you run does not EVER use them?
>

The sites never use them because the developers and DBAs don't even know they exist. Or if they have heard of them haven't a clue how to use them.

Fast forward to places with skilled Oracle staff and they are definitely in use.

>Going back to an example you used: "get someone with 9i experience, Solaris experience,
>billing". What experience? Which part of 9i? ALL of it? Yeah, right, there ain't a
>SINGLE one! ALL of Solaris? Yeah, right, there ain't a SINGLE one! ALL of "billing"?
>etcetc. See what I mean by the silliness of the request? What is 9i or Solaris or
>billing "experience"?
>More precisely: WHICH parts of 9i, Solaris, or billing do they need experience of or
>are they going to be using?
>

A lawyer doesn't need to know every nuance of the law but he's better be familiar with a lot of it. A physician does not know every diagnosis (ICD9) and procedure (CPT) but she'd better know a lot of them. Familiarity with 9i means that you know those things that are important to 9i and have done more than read about them in Oracle Magazine. I'd say, for example a DBA had better know about the major init parameters that were dropped, the TARGET views, UNDO,
and LMT for the system tablespace. Developers need to know bulk binding, FORALL, changes to UTL_FILE, etc. And
while these are not all new to 9i they are certainly "new" in the sense that they are not the 7.x stuff we see most of the time.

>This to lead to the point: to do with the traditional DBA role and new versions.
>I've long been saying that Oracle is highly complex and full of needless features
>for the vast majority of sites out there. It is nearly impossible for any DBA to
>know them all and be totally familiar and conversant with ALL of them at ALL times.
>

But that is true of just about every piece of software. I think MS Word is a joke. No one uses 1/20th of its functionality.

>That is why OCP exams for example are multi-part and across a number of disciplines.
>Change them to everything in the same day and you won't get a single pass! Ie,
>people study as needed, then forget all about it until they ever need it again.
>For that matter, if anyone asks YOU to teach ALL aspects of 9i EVERY single day,
>you'll just call them nuts won't you? Same problem.
>

I'd be thrilled if before I saw 10g released I felt I know 1/20th of 9i.

>All this to say: it is pointless to insist on vague specs like "experience of
>this or that version" until we find out EXACTLY what are the demands of the particular
>job or situation. And if it is relevant in that situation to talk about a specific
>version of anything.
>

Not pointless at all. One does not write a dissertation in place of the standard one short paragraph employment adverstisement. Those that apply need to be familiar with UNIX meaning they had better not stare at the ceiling when asked how to exit vi. They need to have experience with 9i meaning they shouldn't be asking brain-dead questions like "Where's svrmgrl"? And they need to have experience with billing systems which means they need a conceptual understanding of setting up customer accounts and billing cycles and how they work. And probably should be able to carry on a conversation in which phrases like "Chart of Accounts", "Debit", "Credit", "Asset" and "Balance" are bandied about.

>>That is where you are ... not where I am. Open yourself to the
>>possibility that the West Coast of the US is not Oz. To which, I expect
>>most of your countrymen and women are offering a small prayer of thanks.
>>
>>
>
>:) C'mon, the place is not THAT bad!
>

I didn't say it was. But I don't see a huge crush of Aussies banging down the doors at immigration.

>Sure, I'm open. I've also seen the feedback in many online forums.
>The problem is the employers are being told what they should look out
>for. Guess who will be telling them they should ask for 5 years of experience
>on 10G one month after the release?
>

I agree.

>>They are trying to compete with the claim that Oracle is too hard to
>>manage. It has hurt their sales. Of course so has their pricing but I
>>believe that too will be addressed with the release of 10g. Larry has a
>>fiduciary responsibility to his stockholders ... I don't.
>>
>>
>
>I think the high price has done more to hurt Oracle than ANYTHING the
>DBAs could have done or charged. But I've got no way to prove it other
>than wait. IMO, Larry has gone after the wrong people and totally
>alienated those that always supported the product. That's bad.
>

Not the experience here. I don't see anyone alienated from Oracle though we certainly have a bunch of DB2 types recoiling in horror at the name Oracle. I think it says more about their sense of insecurity than anything else. The biggest problem I see in the colonies with respect to Oracle are pricing which is too high for the small and medium sized companies that will in the future be the larger companies on which Oracle expects to make its money. I think there should be a two-tier pricing guideline. One for the Fortune 500s and one for those that are starting out so that they don't go with a competitor.

The second is the support Oracle has given to programs such as the OCP that have short-term provided Oracle with revenue but long-term have created a large cadre of people with good looking resumes that go out into the world and make Oracle look like an expensive version of MS Access. What the industry needs is a certification that has real meaning. And that doesn't mean that you can cram for the exam.

>>It is definitely not too late. And I suspect all it will take is Larry
>>sacrificing some short-term profits to regain market share. I've heard
>>rumors of a new pricing structure for 10g but I know nothing other than
>>rumors. If the price comes down ... the gloves come off.
>>
>>
>
>
>Not sure. Low price has been what DB2 and SQL Server have always used.
>They are WAY ahead of Oracle in that respect. And they can discount to unheard
>of levels, because databases are NOT their mainstay. M$ has already started to
>bundle SS with the OS. Do you think Oracle stands a chance against that? No way.
>

I can spell the name Linux. So why not. Larry can use the spare change in the bilge of one of his boats to buy what he needs to offer his own O/S. Add an office suite that isn't so slow it crawls on its belly like Star Office and give away the O/S and the office suite for free for ten years. Then what does Bill have to sell? Bill can give bundle SQL Server and he's got a second rate RDBMS, an operating system that is the darling of every 16 year old cracker, and an office suite with functionality no one really uses. Larry can bundle an O/S and an office suite and he's got what is arguably the best RDBMS on the market.

The only thing I think is stopping Oracle from becoming a real threat is that the courage we saw in the sea off New Zealand is not translated into courage in the marketplace. Oh have I stepped out on this one. I can't believe I'm not going back with the mouse, highlighting and hitting the delete button.

>Oracle should have looked at the price issue ages ago. Now, they have to contend
>with guys that have been doing it for ages. Not easy. Let's not even start on
>MySQL and Postgres, those have the ability to hurt and bad. I think they will,
>but I won't venture which one. In Australia, MySQL seems to be more popular.
>That may be because of the "bubble" thing and therefore not representative in
>the long run.
>

PostgreSQL seems to me still-born. I see almost no interest in it here. MySQL is a possible contender but it has a long way to go before it can challenge Oracle. Also, one must remember that those that shop based on price will be the ones that buy SQL Server, not Oracle. So I'd expect the biggest hit, as with Linux, will be on Microsoft.

>>If you'd stop saying things I disagree with we could end this thread.
>>
>>
>
>Hey, it wouldn't be a debate if we agreed? :)
>

I agree. Well there I go. I did it. Now all is lost.

>>50-100 DBAs. George asked how many people were familiar with the various
>>TARGET_ADVICE views. Five or six hands went into the air. That is only
>>10%. The others hadn't a clue what he was talking about. You could see
>>in their faces.
>>
>>
>That to me says: the darn things are useless or too complex for people to
>bother with.
>

How can you say they've made a decision about using something if they didn't even know it existed?

>It's a bugger, but it's reality. We have all these people running 9i,
>when we lift the covers and find out what really is being used, it's good
>old plain V6-7 SQL... Even PL/SQL ends up being seldom used. Wanna know
>how many times I've seen object relational used in a db design? Once: one
>of my designs! In 8 years or so the darn thing has been out!
>

And that is one of the biggest problems Oracle needs to deal with. They are pricing their product based
on capabilities that hardly anyone knows exist. And worse yet, capabilities that can't be learned at Oracle Ed and can't be learned in the books on the market, and are not being used. It is as though they are selling
a Cray and their customers think it should be used to surf the web. You can't charge what they are charging
for the RDBMS if they don't take advantage of university programs such as mine to teach people what's
under the covers. And so far they've shown minimal interest in backing what we are doing.

>>home a paycheck to pay the mortgage and put the kids through college ...
>>it is not serving his/her interests which should be to stay right on the
>>cutting edge.
>>
>>
>
>The ones worth keeping WILL stay on the cutting edge. Even if they
>don't take ALL the courses they should.
>Attitude and professionalism, not versions!
>

Same thing. You can't stay on the cutting edge without keeping current on capabilities and versions.
You'll have a hard time finding a book or course with a title like 'Oracle 7.x Warrior" published in the current millenium.

>>Yeh. Right after I get them to put client-server back into Forms which I
>>consider one of the all time braindead decisions.
>>
>>
>
>Agreed 100%.
>

A second agreement. Now the thread is doomed.

>>They looked at my DDL for CREATE DATABASE and asked me what this
>>"uniform extents" thing was. Turns out they hadn't even heard of LMTs.
>>And that is not that unusual.
>>
>>
>
>Well, it comes back to weeding out undesirable attitudes.
>

You say attitude I say versions. Unfortunately, except for semantics, we are agreeing again.

Regards,

-- 
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.asp
damorgan_at_x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)