Re: Is Sr. DBAs afraid of not be able to pass cert exam ??

Arghh! I though this was finally dead! ;)

No my statement simply means that Osborne won't pay for them to take the course. They may have still taken the course separately.

FYI, when I wrote my exam cram it was not expected that I would have taken the course. I mean, after all I could GIVE the course, why would I want to take it? I'd be bored silly. What was expected by my publisher (which was not Osborne so things may be different there) was that I would at least sit the exam, and they paid for me to do it.

--
HTH.  Additions and corrections welcome.

Pete
Author of "Oracle8i: Architecture and Administration Exam Cram"

"Controlling developers is like herding cats."
Kevin Loney, Oracle DBA Handbook

"Oh no, it's not.  It's much harder than that!"
Bruce Pihlamae, long-term Oracle DBA

"damorgan" <dan.morgan_at_ci.seattle.wa.us> wrote in message
news:3C6983A2.97B2BA74_at_ci.seattle.wa.us...


> Thanks again.

>

> But just for my amusement ... does your statement "Oracle University will

not


> allow us to use these without having our authors take the courses" ...

mean that


> the people writing the exam prep books haven't taken the course? Or worse

yet


> ... failed them?

>

> Pete Sharman wrote:

>

> > ANd one more comment to finally put this to bed.  While I haven't

confirmed


> > this with Jason (no response from him yet) I did receive the following

from


> > one of my contacts in the Oracle Press group at Osborne:

> >

> > The books have not been based on courseware because Oracle University

will


> > not allow us to use these without having our authors take the courses --

> > something we cannot demand of them

> >

> > In other words, just because there's an error in the books doesn't mean

> > there's an error in the courserware, and as a corollary, it doesn't mean

> > there's an error in the exam.  Of course. more than one person can come

up


> > with the same mistake at the same time!  ;)

> >

> > --

> > HTH.  Additions and corrections welcome.

> >

> > Pete

> > Author of "Oracle8i: Architecture and Administration Exam Cram"

> >

> > "Controlling developers is like herding cats."

> > Kevin Loney, Oracle DBA Handbook

> >

> > "Oh no, it's not.  It's much harder than that!"

> > Bruce Pihlamae, long-term Oracle DBA

> >

> > "Pete Sharman" <peter.sharman_at_oracle.com> wrote in message

> > news:YKW98.27$ap6.355_at_inet-nntp1.oracle.com...

> > > OK, it's taken some time because I do this as my night job ;), but

here's


> > > what I've been able to find.

> > >

> > > 1.  The original problem highlighted by Daniel (a subquery that

defines a


> > > view cannot contain an ORDER BY clause) is as Daniel mentioned

incorrect


> > in

> > > Couchman's book.  Unfortunately, as I found out it was also incorrect

in


> > the

> > > Introduction to Oracle9i: SQL courseware.  I have logged this as a bug

in


> > > the courseware. and followed up with the Certification Program Manager

to


> > > see if the bug made it's way into the exam.  Her response was (and I

> > quote):

> > >

> > > "The problem in the Oracle9i SQL courseware which you brought to our

> > > attention last week is not duplicated in the exam. Thank you again for

> > > checking on this with us!"

> > >

> > > 2.  I checked the other comments sent to me by Daniel, and none of

these


> > are

> > > reflected in the courseware (and therefore should not be reflected in

the


> > > exam either).

> > >

> > > 3.  I've also followed up with the lead curriculum developer and the

coure


> > > development manager for the courseware so they are aware of the issue.

> > >

> > > --

> > > HTH.  Additions and corrections welcome.

> > >

> > > Pete

> > > Author of "Oracle8i: Architecture and Administration Exam Cram"

> > >

> > > "Controlling developers is like herding cats."

> > > Kevin Loney, Oracle DBA Handbook

> > >

> > > "Oh no, it's not.  It's much harder than that!"

> > > Bruce Pihlamae, long-term Oracle DBA

> > >

> > > "Daniel A. Morgan" <damorgan_at_exesolutions.com> wrote in message

> > > news:3C59B68D.A6CFF9CF_at_exesolutions.com...

> > > > Here are just a few you may have missed.

> > > >

> > > > Pg 128: When you do a group by clause in your query, all the

nongroup


> > > > expressions in the column clause of the query must appear before the

> > > grouped

> > > > expression in the column clause.

> > > >

> > > > This is not true in either 8i or 9i.

> > > >

> > > > Pg 163: Other types of views that you will learn about in Chapter 7

do


> > not

> > > > support the use of the order by clause.

> > > >

> > > > Not true. And luckily the error is not repeated in Chapter 7.

> > > >

> > > > Pg 207: However, if the select statement includes a specific list of

> > > columns

> > > > named in the column clause, your create table clause must list the

> > columns

> > > you

> > > > want in the table to include, enclosed in parenthesis.

> > > >

> > > > Not true in 8i or 9i.

> > > >

> > > > Pg 326: You can index a column that contains NULL or repeated

values, as


> > > well,

> > > > simply by eliminating the unique keyword.

> > > >

> > > > As far as I know never correct in Oracle. You have always been able

to


> > > create a

> > > > unique index on a column with NULLs.

> > > >

> > > > And there are many more.

> > > >

> > > > Daniel Morgan

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Pete Sharman wrote:

> > > >

> > > > > Daniel

> > > > >

> > > > > Since I'm not part of the certification group, no I can't tell you

if


> > > there

> > > > > are errors in the OCP exams.  The only time I see the exams is

when I


> > do

> > > > > them myself, and I haven't done the Intro to SQL exam.

> > > > >

> > > > > However, I looked back to the previous discussion we had on this

to


> > find

> > > > > examples of the gross errors you mention.  Unfortunately the only

one


> > I

> > > > > could see (since our news server seems to age messages out) was

one


> > > where

> > > > > you mentioned that the book said you can't do an ORDER BY in the

> > > subquery to

> > > > > create a view.  That is of course something that is possible to

do, as


> > > you

> > > > > stated:

> > > > >

> > > > > SQL*Plus: Release 9.2.0.0.0 - Beta on Thu Jan 31 14:05:41 2002

> > > > >

> > > > > (c) Copyright 2001 Oracle Corporation.  All rights reserved.

> > > > >

> > > > > SQL> connect / as sysdba

> > > > > Connected.

> > > > >

> > > > > SQL> CREATE VIEW empvu80

> > > > >   2  AS SELECT employee_id, last_name, salary

> > > > >   3  FROM hr.employees

> > > > >   4  WHERE department_id = 80

> > > > >   5  ORDER BY last_name;

> > > > >

> > > > > View created.

> > > > >

> > > > > All I can do is look at the courseware which is what is used to

create


> > > the

> > > > > OCP exams.  In this case, I went to the Oracle9i Introduction to

SQL


> > > course,

> > > > > which I think matches the book you originally highlighted the

problems


> > > with.

> > > > > In chapter 11 of that course, it states (and I quote):

> > > > >

> > > > > . The subquery that defines the view cannot contain an ORDER BY

> > clause.

> > > The

> > > > > ORDER BY

> > > > >

> > > > > clause is specified when you retrieve data from the view.

> > > > >

> > > > > It would therefore seem that the blame is less Jason's than in the

> > wrong

> > > > > material in the courseware (although I would venture to say that

an


> > > author

> > > > > has some responsibility to verify the truth of statements rather

than


> > > just

> > > > > believing them).  From what I understand, the actual question

writers


> > > for

> > > > > the OCP exam are people that are knowledgeable in how to write

> > > meaningful

> > > > > exam questions, not necessarily people who know the ins and outs

of


> > the

> > > > > Oracle database.  As a result, the OCP questions simply reflect

the


> > > > > courseware, so the problem that needs to be addressed here is the

> > > courseware

> > > > > (with an automatic flow on to fixing the problem in the OCP exam).

> > > > >

> > > > > SO, the next step is to look at the courseware.  We have a

mechanism


> > for

> > > > > logging bugs against particular courses internally.  I went and

looked


> > > at

> > > > > the bugs for the 9i course and this specific issue wasn't there.

> > > > >

> > > > > To ensure this issue is addressed, I can do two things:

> > > > >

> > > > > 1.  Since I've never looked at this course or Jason's book, I'm

not


> > > overly

> > > > > familiar with them.  For the sake of future releases of the

courseware


> > > and

> > > > > the OCP, I would ask you (if you have this) to send me a list of

the


> > > > > problems you know about.  I will log these as bugs for the course,

and


> > > the

> > > > > next release of the course will no longer suffer from this

problem.  I


> > > know

> > > > > this is probably asking a bit much and it's certainly not your

> > > > > responsibility, but this will be the quickest way of addressing

the


> > > problem.

> > > > >

> > > > > 2.  I will also raise the issue with the Certification Program

manager


> > > and

> > > > > ask for her comments, which I will bring back to this forum.  If

> > anyone

> > > > > feels that have unfairly failed an exam because of these issues,

send


> > me

> > > an

> > > > > email (peter.sharman_at_oracle.com - please don't send to the group)

and


> > I

> > > will

> > > > > also raise that with the Certification Program manager.  I can't

> > promise

> > > > > anything can be done about it though, since it's totally outside

of my


> > > > > sphere of influence.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm also willing to discuss this offline with anyone who feels the

> > need

> > > to

> > > > > do so.

> > > > >

> > > > > --

> > > > > HTH.  Additions and corrections welcome.

> > > > >

> > > > > Pete

> > > > > Author of "Oracle8i: Architecture and Administration Exam Cram"

> > > > >

> > > > > "Controlling developers is like herding cats."

> > > > > Kevin Loney, Oracle DBA Handbook

> > > > >

> > > > > "Oh no, it's not.  It's much harder than that!"

> > > > > Bruce Pihlamae, long-term Oracle DBA

> > > > >

> > > > > "Daniel A. Morgan" <damorgan_at_exesolutions.com> wrote in message

> > > > > news:3C592AE1.B0E78D3B_at_exesolutions.com...

> > > > > > Thank you for your thoughtful and valuable input. Now can you

> > explain

> > > to

> > > > > us why

> > > > > > we are seeing gross errors of fact in the Oracle Press books

that


> > are

> > > for

> > > > > OCP

> > > > > > training? My email to Jason Couchman has gone (as must confess I

> > > > > anticipated)

> > > > > > unanswered.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And should we infer that it is just the book that is incorrect

...


> > or

> > > that

> > > > > the

> > > > > > book is an accurate reflection of the test and that the test too

is


> > > > > incorrect?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > On the subject of Oracle's education courses I have always found

> > them

> > > > > valuable

> > > > > > ... if viewed in the context of what they are. They are a great

way


> > to

> > > get

> > > > > > started with a new product or new release of a product. They are

> > not,

> > > in

> > > > > my

> > > > > > estimation, intended to create competency.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thank you.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Daniel Morgan

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Pete Sharman wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > I always find these discussions fascinating, particularly

since my


> > > role

> > > > > in

> > > > > > > Oracle is half training our consultants on new releases of the

> > > database.

> > > > > > > One of the things I've always done in my time with Oracle

(which


> > is

> > > over

> > > > > 7

> > > > > > > years now) is to review the course material as it comes out,

so


> > I'd

> > > like

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > make some comments on Howard's viewpoint.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Firstly, one of the major difficulties when developing

courseware


> > > for

> > > > > > > something with as many different capabilities as the Oracle

> > database

> > > has

> > > > > is

> > > > > > > determining what to include and what not to include in the

> > > courseware.

> > > > > If

> > > > > > > we covered everything you needed to know to be a competent DBA

in


> > > the

> > > > > basic

> > > > > > > training (and by that I mean the DBA Fundamentals I and II

courses


> > > and

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > Performance Tuning course), guess what?  You'd probably be

paying


> > > for 6

> > > > > > > months worth of training (OK, maybe I exaggerate, but you get

the


> > > > > point).

> > > > > > > That's why the basic training was developed in the way it

was - to


> > > give

> > > > > you

> > > > > > > the basic knowledge you need to be able to perform normal DBA

> > tasks.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > As a result, some of the less frequently used functionality

must


> > be

> > > left

> > > > > out

> > > > > > > of that course.  I'd include things like partitioning in that

> > > category.

> > > > > I'm

> > > > > > > not sure what the percentage is, but if you polled people in

this


> > > > > newsgroup

> > > > > > > I think you would find less than 50% actually use it.

However, it


> > > is

> > > > > still

> > > > > > > important to have training on this, and that's why we develop

more


> > > > > advanced

> > > > > > > courseware.  The more advanced courseware expects you to know

the


> > > > > > > fundamentals, and then spend more time being trained on things

> > like

> > > > > > > Partitioning, AQ, Advanced Replication and so on.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Secondly, to get valuable training on more complex

functionality


> > > > > requires

> > > > > > > dedicated courseware.  Take, for example, RAC.  One of the

hardest


> > > parts

> > > > > of

> > > > > > > writing the 9i New Features for Administrators course was

Chapter


> > > 12,

> > > > > Real

> > > > > > > Application Clusters.  It's an incredibly important are of

> > > knowledge,

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > one that is far more widely accepted as useful to the general

> > Oracle

> > > > > > > population than OPS ever was.  However, we already have a full

5


> > > days

> > > > > for

> > > > > > > that course.  To cover it in more detail is just not possible,

so


> > we

> > > > > > > introduce it in the 9i NFDBA course so people are aware of how

> > > useful

> > > > > that

> > > > > > > technology is.  There is a separate 5 day course on RAC due to

be


> > > > > released

> > > > > > > soon, which takes you into the gory detail you need to know

for


> > how

> > > to

> > > > > > > implement and use it.  I'd venture to say that's the major

> > > difference

> > > > > > > between the New Features course and any other one.  The New

> > Features

> > > > > course

> > > > > > > has so many areas to cover that it can only introduce the

concepts


> > > to

> > > > > you,

> > > > > > > which you then need to investigate more (either yourself or on

> > > > > additional

> > > > > > > training).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Finally let me say where I see OCP to be valuable, personally.

I


> > > > > started

> > > > > > > life in Oracle as a DBA instructor after 4 years as a DBA

before


> > > joining

> > > > > > > Oracle.  I started the certification for one reason only - it

got


> > > really

> > > > > > > embarassing as an instructor for someone to say "Are you a

> > certified

> > > > > DBA?"

> > > > > > > and to have to answer no.  Now that I'm no longer in Oracle

> > > Education,

> > > > > that

> > > > > > > is far less of a hassle, but I continue to keep up my

> > certification.

> > > > > The

> > > > > > > reasons?  One - it's cheaper to keep it up by doing the New

> > Features

> > > > > exam

> > > > > > > each time than it would be to renew it afresh if I let it

expire.


> > > Two -

> > > > > > > there are always areas in the exams that I don't know because

I


> > > don't

> > > > > use

> > > > > > > them in my day to day job, so it's really useful to find out

about


> > > this

> > > > > > > stuff so I can determine if it would be useful to employ when

I do


> > > need

> > > > > it.

> > > > > > > Three - before I joined Oracle, I lost out on a promotion

purely


> > snd

> > > > > simply

> > > > > > > because the other guy had a piece of paper and I didn't.

That's


> > all

> > > > > they

> > > > > > > could separate us on, and it ended up costing me thousands of

> > > dollars

> > > > > over

> > > > > > > the next couple of years.  :(

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > --

> > > > > > > HTH.  Additions and corrections welcome.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Pete

> > > > > > > Author of "Oracle8i: Architecture and Administration Exam

Cram"


> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > "Controlling developers is like herding cats."

> > > > > > > Kevin Loney, Oracle DBA Handbook

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > "Oh no, it's not.  It's much harder than that!"

> > > > > > > Bruce Pihlamae, long-term Oracle DBA

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > "Howard J. Rogers" <dba_at_hjrdba.com> wrote in message

> > > > > > > news:3c583ff4$0$8455$afc38c87_at_news.optusnet.com.au...

> > > > > > > > I might agree with you, except that the DBA stream for the

OCP


> > > doesn't

> > > > > > > > mention partitioning once (it's not even on the Performance

> > Tuning

> > > > > course,

> > > > > > > > which is madness).  It doesn't mention Advanced Replication

at


> > all

> > > > > (unless

> > > > > > > > you're upgrading to 9i OCP, in whcih case it mysteriously

makes


> > an

> > > > > > > > appearance).  It doesn't deal with Advanced Queueing.  It

> > doesn't

> > > deal

> > > > > > > with

> > > > > > > > Parallel Server (again, 9i upgrade has 1 rather scanty

chapter


> > > devoted

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > > RACs).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I'm not saying that the DBA stream is not challenging or

> > > > > informative -look

> > > > > > > > at the number of posts we get here for 'why can't I back up

my


> > > online

> > > > > redo

> > > > > > > > logs?', as a simple example.  But forget all this nonsense

about


> > > 'you

> > > > > will

> > > > > > > > learn *all* the features of the product'.  You won't, simple

as


> > > that.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > If all you have is an OCP, it tells me that you know the

basics.


> > > Sort

> > > > > of.

> > > > > > > > And that's about it.  The real nub of complex database

> > > administration

> > > > > is

> > > > > > > > entirely absent (which is frustrating enough as an

instructor,


> > let

> > > > > alone

> > > > > > > as

> > > > > > > > a would-be DBA who actually wants to learn his craft).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Regards

> > > > > > > > HJR

> > > > > > > > --

> > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------

> > > > > > > > Oracle Resources: http://www.hjrdba.com

> > > > > > > > ============================

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > "Christian Svensson" <chse30_at_hotmail.com> wrote in message

> > > > > > > > news:ccc2a7eb.0201300648.f6fdd3_at_posting.google.com...

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >Last I just want say if a future employer have to

choose


> > > between

> > > > > two

> > > > > > > > > > >consultants with exact same years of experience and one

of


> > > them

> > > > > have

> > > > > > > a

> > > > > > > > > > >DBA OCP, which one do you think they will think of most

?


> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > That is IMHO a very good argument.  And the ONLY one

going


> > for

> > > OCP

> > > > > > > > > > certification in its present format.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The only one ? How about:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > - You will get paid more (if your employer agree to this

of


> > > course)

> > > > > > > > > - You will learn more in the studying process, i.e you

will be


> > > aware

> > > > > > > > > of "all" the features/options

> > > > > > > > > - You get a written proof of you knowledge (you should of

> > course

> > > > > also

> > > > > > > > > have at least a year of practical experience)

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I also want to make it crystal clear that I dont belive in

> > > studying

> > > > > 1

> > > > > > > > > week about 12 hours a day and then take the exam and you

are


> > > > > > > > > automatically an Oracle DBA. To be a DBA you need

experience,


> > > end of

> > > > > > > > > discussion. But studying for the OCP is in my mind one way

to


> > > get a

> > > > > > > > > better DBA or to get a better understanding of Oracle.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Regards.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > /Christian

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

>