Re: Is Sr. DBAs afraid of not be able to pass cert exam ??

Thanks again.

But just for my amusement ... does your statement "Oracle University will not allow us to use these without having our authors take the courses" ... mean that the people writing the exam prep books haven't taken the course? Or worse yet ... failed them?

Pete Sharman wrote:

> ANd one more comment to finally put this to bed. While I haven't confirmed
> this with Jason (no response from him yet) I did receive the following from
> one of my contacts in the Oracle Press group at Osborne:
>
> The books have not been based on courseware because Oracle University will
> not allow us to use these without having our authors take the courses --
> something we cannot demand of them
>
> In other words, just because there's an error in the books doesn't mean
> there's an error in the courserware, and as a corollary, it doesn't mean
> there's an error in the exam. Of course. more than one person can come up
> with the same mistake at the same time! ;)
>
> --
> HTH. Additions and corrections welcome.
>
> Pete
> Author of "Oracle8i: Architecture and Administration Exam Cram"
>
> "Controlling developers is like herding cats."
> Kevin Loney, Oracle DBA Handbook
>
> "Oh no, it's not. It's much harder than that!"
> Bruce Pihlamae, long-term Oracle DBA
>
> "Pete Sharman" <peter.sharman_at_oracle.com> wrote in message
> news:YKW98.27$ap6.355_at_inet-nntp1.oracle.com...
> > OK, it's taken some time because I do this as my night job ;), but here's
> > what I've been able to find.
> >
> > 1. The original problem highlighted by Daniel (a subquery that defines a
> > view cannot contain an ORDER BY clause) is as Daniel mentioned incorrect
> in
> > Couchman's book. Unfortunately, as I found out it was also incorrect in
> the
> > Introduction to Oracle9i: SQL courseware. I have logged this as a bug in
> > the courseware. and followed up with the Certification Program Manager to
> > see if the bug made it's way into the exam. Her response was (and I
> quote):
> >
> > "The problem in the Oracle9i SQL courseware which you brought to our
> > attention last week is not duplicated in the exam. Thank you again for
> > checking on this with us!"
> >
> > 2. I checked the other comments sent to me by Daniel, and none of these
> are
> > reflected in the courseware (and therefore should not be reflected in the
> > exam either).
> >
> > 3. I've also followed up with the lead curriculum developer and the coure
> > development manager for the courseware so they are aware of the issue.
> >
> > --
> > HTH. Additions and corrections welcome.
> >
> > Pete
> > Author of "Oracle8i: Architecture and Administration Exam Cram"
> >
> > "Controlling developers is like herding cats."
> > Kevin Loney, Oracle DBA Handbook
> >
> > "Oh no, it's not. It's much harder than that!"
> > Bruce Pihlamae, long-term Oracle DBA
> >
> > "Daniel A. Morgan" <damorgan_at_exesolutions.com> wrote in message
> > news:3C59B68D.A6CFF9CF_at_exesolutions.com...
> > > Here are just a few you may have missed.
> > >
> > > Pg 128: When you do a group by clause in your query, all the nongroup
> > > expressions in the column clause of the query must appear before the
> > grouped
> > > expression in the column clause.
> > >
> > > This is not true in either 8i or 9i.
> > >
> > > Pg 163: Other types of views that you will learn about in Chapter 7 do
> not
> > > support the use of the order by clause.
> > >
> > > Not true. And luckily the error is not repeated in Chapter 7.
> > >
> > > Pg 207: However, if the select statement includes a specific list of
> > columns
> > > named in the column clause, your create table clause must list the
> columns
> > you
> > > want in the table to include, enclosed in parenthesis.
> > >
> > > Not true in 8i or 9i.
> > >
> > > Pg 326: You can index a column that contains NULL or repeated values, as
> > well,
> > > simply by eliminating the unique keyword.
> > >
> > > As far as I know never correct in Oracle. You have always been able to
> > create a
> > > unique index on a column with NULLs.
> > >
> > > And there are many more.
> > >
> > > Daniel Morgan
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Pete Sharman wrote:
> > >
> > > > Daniel
> > > >
> > > > Since I'm not part of the certification group, no I can't tell you if
> > there
> > > > are errors in the OCP exams. The only time I see the exams is when I
> do
> > > > them myself, and I haven't done the Intro to SQL exam.
> > > >
> > > > However, I looked back to the previous discussion we had on this to
> find
> > > > examples of the gross errors you mention. Unfortunately the only one
> I
> > > > could see (since our news server seems to age messages out) was one
> > where
> > > > you mentioned that the book said you can't do an ORDER BY in the
> > subquery to
> > > > create a view. That is of course something that is possible to do, as
> > you
> > > > stated:
> > > >
> > > > SQL*Plus: Release 9.2.0.0.0 - Beta on Thu Jan 31 14:05:41 2002
> > > >
> > > > (c) Copyright 2001 Oracle Corporation. All rights reserved.
> > > >
> > > > SQL> connect / as sysdba
> > > > Connected.
> > > >
> > > > SQL> CREATE VIEW empvu80
> > > > 2 AS SELECT employee_id, last_name, salary
> > > > 3 FROM hr.employees
> > > > 4 WHERE department_id = 80
> > > > 5 ORDER BY last_name;
> > > >
> > > > View created.
> > > >
> > > > All I can do is look at the courseware which is what is used to create
> > the
> > > > OCP exams. In this case, I went to the Oracle9i Introduction to SQL
> > course,
> > > > which I think matches the book you originally highlighted the problems
> > with.
> > > > In chapter 11 of that course, it states (and I quote):
> > > >
> > > > . The subquery that defines the view cannot contain an ORDER BY
> clause.
> > The
> > > > ORDER BY
> > > >
> > > > clause is specified when you retrieve data from the view.
> > > >
> > > > It would therefore seem that the blame is less Jason's than in the
> wrong
> > > > material in the courseware (although I would venture to say that an
> > author
> > > > has some responsibility to verify the truth of statements rather than
> > just
> > > > believing them). From what I understand, the actual question writers
> > for
> > > > the OCP exam are people that are knowledgeable in how to write
> > meaningful
> > > > exam questions, not necessarily people who know the ins and outs of
> the
> > > > Oracle database. As a result, the OCP questions simply reflect the
> > > > courseware, so the problem that needs to be addressed here is the
> > courseware
> > > > (with an automatic flow on to fixing the problem in the OCP exam).
> > > >
> > > > SO, the next step is to look at the courseware. We have a mechanism
> for
> > > > logging bugs against particular courses internally. I went and looked
> > at
> > > > the bugs for the 9i course and this specific issue wasn't there.
> > > >
> > > > To ensure this issue is addressed, I can do two things:
> > > >
> > > > 1. Since I've never looked at this course or Jason's book, I'm not
> > overly
> > > > familiar with them. For the sake of future releases of the courseware
> > and
> > > > the OCP, I would ask you (if you have this) to send me a list of the
> > > > problems you know about. I will log these as bugs for the course, and
> > the
> > > > next release of the course will no longer suffer from this problem. I
> > know
> > > > this is probably asking a bit much and it's certainly not your
> > > > responsibility, but this will be the quickest way of addressing the
> > problem.
> > > >
> > > > 2. I will also raise the issue with the Certification Program manager
> > and
> > > > ask for her comments, which I will bring back to this forum. If
> anyone
> > > > feels that have unfairly failed an exam because of these issues, send
> me
> > an
> > > > email (peter.sharman_at_oracle.com - please don't send to the group) and
> I
> > will
> > > > also raise that with the Certification Program manager. I can't
> promise
> > > > anything can be done about it though, since it's totally outside of my
> > > > sphere of influence.
> > > >
> > > > I'm also willing to discuss this offline with anyone who feels the
> need
> > to
> > > > do so.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > HTH. Additions and corrections welcome.
> > > >
> > > > Pete
> > > > Author of "Oracle8i: Architecture and Administration Exam Cram"
> > > >
> > > > "Controlling developers is like herding cats."
> > > > Kevin Loney, Oracle DBA Handbook
> > > >
> > > > "Oh no, it's not. It's much harder than that!"
> > > > Bruce Pihlamae, long-term Oracle DBA
> > > >
> > > > "Daniel A. Morgan" <damorgan_at_exesolutions.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:3C592AE1.B0E78D3B_at_exesolutions.com...
> > > > > Thank you for your thoughtful and valuable input. Now can you
> explain
> > to
> > > > us why
> > > > > we are seeing gross errors of fact in the Oracle Press books that
> are
> > for
> > > > OCP
> > > > > training? My email to Jason Couchman has gone (as must confess I
> > > > anticipated)
> > > > > unanswered.
> > > > >
> > > > > And should we infer that it is just the book that is incorrect ...
> or
> > that
> > > > the
> > > > > book is an accurate reflection of the test and that the test too is
> > > > incorrect?
> > > > >
> > > > > On the subject of Oracle's education courses I have always found
> them
> > > > valuable
> > > > > ... if viewed in the context of what they are. They are a great way
> to
> > get
> > > > > started with a new product or new release of a product. They are
> not,
> > in
> > > > my
> > > > > estimation, intended to create competency.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you.
> > > > >
> > > > > Daniel Morgan
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Pete Sharman wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I always find these discussions fascinating, particularly since my
> > role
> > > > in
> > > > > > Oracle is half training our consultants on new releases of the
> > database.
> > > > > > One of the things I've always done in my time with Oracle (which
> is
> > over
> > > > 7
> > > > > > years now) is to review the course material as it comes out, so
> I'd
> > like
> > > > to
> > > > > > make some comments on Howard's viewpoint.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Firstly, one of the major difficulties when developing courseware
> > for
> > > > > > something with as many different capabilities as the Oracle
> database
> > has
> > > > is
> > > > > > determining what to include and what not to include in the
> > courseware.
> > > > If
> > > > > > we covered everything you needed to know to be a competent DBA in
> > the
> > > > basic
> > > > > > training (and by that I mean the DBA Fundamentals I and II courses
> > and
> > > > the
> > > > > > Performance Tuning course), guess what? You'd probably be paying
> > for 6
> > > > > > months worth of training (OK, maybe I exaggerate, but you get the
> > > > point).
> > > > > > That's why the basic training was developed in the way it was - to
> > give
> > > > you
> > > > > > the basic knowledge you need to be able to perform normal DBA
> tasks.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As a result, some of the less frequently used functionality must
> be
> > left
> > > > out
> > > > > > of that course. I'd include things like partitioning in that
> > category.
> > > > I'm
> > > > > > not sure what the percentage is, but if you polled people in this
> > > > newsgroup
> > > > > > I think you would find less than 50% actually use it. However, it
> > is
> > > > still
> > > > > > important to have training on this, and that's why we develop more
> > > > advanced
> > > > > > courseware. The more advanced courseware expects you to know the
> > > > > > fundamentals, and then spend more time being trained on things
> like
> > > > > > Partitioning, AQ, Advanced Replication and so on.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Secondly, to get valuable training on more complex functionality
> > > > requires
> > > > > > dedicated courseware. Take, for example, RAC. One of the hardest
> > parts
> > > > of
> > > > > > writing the 9i New Features for Administrators course was Chapter
> > 12,
> > > > Real
> > > > > > Application Clusters. It's an incredibly important are of
> > knowledge,
> > > > and
> > > > > > one that is far more widely accepted as useful to the general
> Oracle
> > > > > > population than OPS ever was. However, we already have a full 5
> > days
> > > > for
> > > > > > that course. To cover it in more detail is just not possible, so
> we
> > > > > > introduce it in the 9i NFDBA course so people are aware of how
> > useful
> > > > that
> > > > > > technology is. There is a separate 5 day course on RAC due to be
> > > > released
> > > > > > soon, which takes you into the gory detail you need to know for
> how
> > to
> > > > > > implement and use it. I'd venture to say that's the major
> > difference
> > > > > > between the New Features course and any other one. The New
> Features
> > > > course
> > > > > > has so many areas to cover that it can only introduce the concepts
> > to
> > > > you,
> > > > > > which you then need to investigate more (either yourself or on
> > > > additional
> > > > > > training).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Finally let me say where I see OCP to be valuable, personally. I
> > > > started
> > > > > > life in Oracle as a DBA instructor after 4 years as a DBA before
> > joining
> > > > > > Oracle. I started the certification for one reason only - it got
> > really
> > > > > > embarassing as an instructor for someone to say "Are you a
> certified
> > > > DBA?"
> > > > > > and to have to answer no. Now that I'm no longer in Oracle
> > Education,
> > > > that
> > > > > > is far less of a hassle, but I continue to keep up my
> certification.
> > > > The
> > > > > > reasons? One - it's cheaper to keep it up by doing the New
> Features
> > > > exam
> > > > > > each time than it would be to renew it afresh if I let it expire.
> > Two -
> > > > > > there are always areas in the exams that I don't know because I
> > don't
> > > > use
> > > > > > them in my day to day job, so it's really useful to find out about
> > this
> > > > > > stuff so I can determine if it would be useful to employ when I do
> > need
> > > > it.
> > > > > > Three - before I joined Oracle, I lost out on a promotion purely
> snd
> > > > simply
> > > > > > because the other guy had a piece of paper and I didn't. That's
> all
> > > > they
> > > > > > could separate us on, and it ended up costing me thousands of
> > dollars
> > > > over
> > > > > > the next couple of years. :(
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > HTH. Additions and corrections welcome.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Pete
> > > > > > Author of "Oracle8i: Architecture and Administration Exam Cram"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Controlling developers is like herding cats."
> > > > > > Kevin Loney, Oracle DBA Handbook
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Oh no, it's not. It's much harder than that!"
> > > > > > Bruce Pihlamae, long-term Oracle DBA
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Howard J. Rogers" <dba_at_hjrdba.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:3c583ff4$0$8455$afc38c87_at_news.optusnet.com.au...
> > > > > > > I might agree with you, except that the DBA stream for the OCP
> > doesn't
> > > > > > > mention partitioning once (it's not even on the Performance
> Tuning
> > > > course,
> > > > > > > which is madness). It doesn't mention Advanced Replication at
> all
> > > > (unless
> > > > > > > you're upgrading to 9i OCP, in whcih case it mysteriously makes
> an
> > > > > > > appearance). It doesn't deal with Advanced Queueing. It
> doesn't
> > deal
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > Parallel Server (again, 9i upgrade has 1 rather scanty chapter
> > devoted
> > > > to
> > > > > > > RACs).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm not saying that the DBA stream is not challenging or
> > > > informative -look
> > > > > > > at the number of posts we get here for 'why can't I back up my
> > online
> > > > redo
> > > > > > > logs?', as a simple example. But forget all this nonsense about
> > 'you
> > > > will
> > > > > > > learn *all* the features of the product'. You won't, simple as
> > that.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If all you have is an OCP, it tells me that you know the basics.
> > Sort
> > > > of.
> > > > > > > And that's about it. The real nub of complex database
> > administration
> > > > is
> > > > > > > entirely absent (which is frustrating enough as an instructor,
> let
> > > > alone
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > a would-be DBA who actually wants to learn his craft).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Regards
> > > > > > > HJR
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > ------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > Oracle Resources: http://www.hjrdba.com
> > > > > > > ============================
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Christian Svensson" <chse30_at_hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:ccc2a7eb.0201300648.f6fdd3_at_posting.google.com...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >Last I just want say if a future employer have to choose
> > between
> > > > two
> > > > > > > > > >consultants with exact same years of experience and one of
> > them
> > > > have
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > >DBA OCP, which one do you think they will think of most ?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > That is IMHO a very good argument. And the ONLY one going
> for
> > OCP
> > > > > > > > > certification in its present format.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The only one ? How about:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - You will get paid more (if your employer agree to this of
> > course)
> > > > > > > > - You will learn more in the studying process, i.e you will be
> > aware
> > > > > > > > of "all" the features/options
> > > > > > > > - You get a written proof of you knowledge (you should of
> course
> > > > also
> > > > > > > > have at least a year of practical experience)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I also want to make it crystal clear that I dont belive in
> > studying
> > > > 1
> > > > > > > > week about 12 hours a day and then take the exam and you are
> > > > > > > > automatically an Oracle DBA. To be a DBA you need experience,
> > end of
> > > > > > > > discussion. But studying for the OCP is in my mind one way to
> > get a
> > > > > > > > better DBA or to get a better understanding of Oracle.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Regards.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > /Christian
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> >
> >
Received on Tue Feb 12 2002 - 15:05:36 CST