Re: Is Sr. DBAs afraid of not be able to pass cert exam ??

Thanks.

I guess I always thought of it the other way around. Not that they would pick an author that may, or may not, have taken the exam already. But rather that anyone that had not scored 100% on the exam would never even be asked to write a prep book: Or at least that should be the minimum qualification for the technical editor.

But ... ok ... the thread can end here. No need to respond and continue it.

Thanks again,

Daniel Morgan

Pete Sharman wrote:

> Arghh! I though this was finally dead! ;)
>
> No my statement simply means that Osborne won't pay for them to take the
> course. They may have still taken the course separately.
>
> FYI, when I wrote my exam cram it was not expected that I would have taken
> the course. I mean, after all I could GIVE the course, why would I want to
> take it? I'd be bored silly. What was expected by my publisher (which was
> not Osborne so things may be different there) was that I would at least sit
> the exam, and they paid for me to do it.
>
> --
> HTH. Additions and corrections welcome.
>
> Pete
> Author of "Oracle8i: Architecture and Administration Exam Cram"
>
> "Controlling developers is like herding cats."
> Kevin Loney, Oracle DBA Handbook
>
> "Oh no, it's not. It's much harder than that!"
> Bruce Pihlamae, long-term Oracle DBA
>
> "damorgan" <dan.morgan_at_ci.seattle.wa.us> wrote in message
> news:3C6983A2.97B2BA74_at_ci.seattle.wa.us...
> > Thanks again.
> >
> > But just for my amusement ... does your statement "Oracle University will
> not
> > allow us to use these without having our authors take the courses" ...
> mean that
> > the people writing the exam prep books haven't taken the course? Or worse
> yet
> > ... failed them?
> >
> > Pete Sharman wrote:
> >
> > > ANd one more comment to finally put this to bed. While I haven't
> confirmed
> > > this with Jason (no response from him yet) I did receive the following
> from
> > > one of my contacts in the Oracle Press group at Osborne:
> > >
> > > The books have not been based on courseware because Oracle University
> will
> > > not allow us to use these without having our authors take the courses --
> > > something we cannot demand of them
> > >
> > > In other words, just because there's an error in the books doesn't mean
> > > there's an error in the courserware, and as a corollary, it doesn't mean
> > > there's an error in the exam. Of course. more than one person can come
> up
> > > with the same mistake at the same time! ;)
> > >
> > > --
> > > HTH. Additions and corrections welcome.
> > >
> > > Pete
> > > Author of "Oracle8i: Architecture and Administration Exam Cram"
> > >
> > > "Controlling developers is like herding cats."
> > > Kevin Loney, Oracle DBA Handbook
> > >
> > > "Oh no, it's not. It's much harder than that!"
> > > Bruce Pihlamae, long-term Oracle DBA
> > >
> > > "Pete Sharman" <peter.sharman_at_oracle.com> wrote in message
> > > news:YKW98.27$ap6.355_at_inet-nntp1.oracle.com...
> > > > OK, it's taken some time because I do this as my night job ;), but
> here's
> > > > what I've been able to find.
> > > >
> > > > 1. The original problem highlighted by Daniel (a subquery that
> defines a
> > > > view cannot contain an ORDER BY clause) is as Daniel mentioned
> incorrect
> > > in
> > > > Couchman's book. Unfortunately, as I found out it was also incorrect
> in
> > > the
> > > > Introduction to Oracle9i: SQL courseware. I have logged this as a bug
> in
> > > > the courseware. and followed up with the Certification Program Manager
> to
> > > > see if the bug made it's way into the exam. Her response was (and I
> > > quote):
> > > >
> > > > "The problem in the Oracle9i SQL courseware which you brought to our
> > > > attention last week is not duplicated in the exam. Thank you again for
> > > > checking on this with us!"
> > > >
> > > > 2. I checked the other comments sent to me by Daniel, and none of
> these
> > > are
> > > > reflected in the courseware (and therefore should not be reflected in
> the
> > > > exam either).
> > > >
> > > > 3. I've also followed up with the lead curriculum developer and the
> coure
> > > > development manager for the courseware so they are aware of the issue.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > HTH. Additions and corrections welcome.
> > > >
> > > > Pete
> > > > Author of "Oracle8i: Architecture and Administration Exam Cram"
> > > >
> > > > "Controlling developers is like herding cats."
> > > > Kevin Loney, Oracle DBA Handbook
> > > >
> > > > "Oh no, it's not. It's much harder than that!"
> > > > Bruce Pihlamae, long-term Oracle DBA
> > > >
> > > > "Daniel A. Morgan" <damorgan_at_exesolutions.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:3C59B68D.A6CFF9CF_at_exesolutions.com...
> > > > > Here are just a few you may have missed.
> > > > >
> > > > > Pg 128: When you do a group by clause in your query, all the
> nongroup
> > > > > expressions in the column clause of the query must appear before the
> > > > grouped
> > > > > expression in the column clause.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is not true in either 8i or 9i.
> > > > >
> > > > > Pg 163: Other types of views that you will learn about in Chapter 7
> do
> > > not
> > > > > support the use of the order by clause.
> > > > >
> > > > > Not true. And luckily the error is not repeated in Chapter 7.
> > > > >
> > > > > Pg 207: However, if the select statement includes a specific list of
> > > > columns
> > > > > named in the column clause, your create table clause must list the
> > > columns
> > > > you
> > > > > want in the table to include, enclosed in parenthesis.
> > > > >
> > > > > Not true in 8i or 9i.
> > > > >
> > > > > Pg 326: You can index a column that contains NULL or repeated
> values, as
> > > > well,
> > > > > simply by eliminating the unique keyword.
> > > > >
> > > > > As far as I know never correct in Oracle. You have always been able
> to
> > > > create a
> > > > > unique index on a column with NULLs.
> > > > >
> > > > > And there are many more.
> > > > >
> > > > > Daniel Morgan
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Pete Sharman wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Daniel
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Since I'm not part of the certification group, no I can't tell you
> if
> > > > there
> > > > > > are errors in the OCP exams. The only time I see the exams is
> when I
> > > do
> > > > > > them myself, and I haven't done the Intro to SQL exam.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > However, I looked back to the previous discussion we had on this
> to
> > > find
> > > > > > examples of the gross errors you mention. Unfortunately the only
> one
> > > I
> > > > > > could see (since our news server seems to age messages out) was
> one
> > > > where
> > > > > > you mentioned that the book said you can't do an ORDER BY in the
> > > > subquery to
> > > > > > create a view. That is of course something that is possible to
> do, as
> > > > you
> > > > > > stated:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > SQL*Plus: Release 9.2.0.0.0 - Beta on Thu Jan 31 14:05:41 2002
> > > > > >
> > > > > > (c) Copyright 2001 Oracle Corporation. All rights reserved.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > SQL> connect / as sysdba
> > > > > > Connected.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > SQL> CREATE VIEW empvu80
> > > > > > 2 AS SELECT employee_id, last_name, salary
> > > > > > 3 FROM hr.employees
> > > > > > 4 WHERE department_id = 80
> > > > > > 5 ORDER BY last_name;
> > > > > >
> > > > > > View created.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > All I can do is look at the courseware which is what is used to
> create
> > > > the
> > > > > > OCP exams. In this case, I went to the Oracle9i Introduction to
> SQL
> > > > course,
> > > > > > which I think matches the book you originally highlighted the
> problems
> > > > with.
> > > > > > In chapter 11 of that course, it states (and I quote):
> > > > > >
> > > > > > . The subquery that defines the view cannot contain an ORDER BY
> > > clause.
> > > > The
> > > > > > ORDER BY
> > > > > >
> > > > > > clause is specified when you retrieve data from the view.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It would therefore seem that the blame is less Jason's than in the
> > > wrong
> > > > > > material in the courseware (although I would venture to say that
> an
> > > > author
> > > > > > has some responsibility to verify the truth of statements rather
> than
> > > > just
> > > > > > believing them). From what I understand, the actual question
> writers
> > > > for
> > > > > > the OCP exam are people that are knowledgeable in how to write
> > > > meaningful
> > > > > > exam questions, not necessarily people who know the ins and outs
> of
> > > the
> > > > > > Oracle database. As a result, the OCP questions simply reflect
> the
> > > > > > courseware, so the problem that needs to be addressed here is the
> > > > courseware
> > > > > > (with an automatic flow on to fixing the problem in the OCP exam).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > SO, the next step is to look at the courseware. We have a
> mechanism
> > > for
> > > > > > logging bugs against particular courses internally. I went and
> looked
> > > > at
> > > > > > the bugs for the 9i course and this specific issue wasn't there.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To ensure this issue is addressed, I can do two things:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1. Since I've never looked at this course or Jason's book, I'm
> not
> > > > overly
> > > > > > familiar with them. For the sake of future releases of the
> courseware
> > > > and
> > > > > > the OCP, I would ask you (if you have this) to send me a list of
> the
> > > > > > problems you know about. I will log these as bugs for the course,
> and
> > > > the
> > > > > > next release of the course will no longer suffer from this
> problem. I
> > > > know
> > > > > > this is probably asking a bit much and it's certainly not your
> > > > > > responsibility, but this will be the quickest way of addressing
> the
> > > > problem.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2. I will also raise the issue with the Certification Program
> manager
> > > > and
> > > > > > ask for her comments, which I will bring back to this forum. If
> > > anyone
> > > > > > feels that have unfairly failed an exam because of these issues,
> send
> > > me
> > > > an
> > > > > > email (peter.sharman_at_oracle.com - please don't send to the group)
> and
> > > I
> > > > will
> > > > > > also raise that with the Certification Program manager. I can't
> > > promise
> > > > > > anything can be done about it though, since it's totally outside
> of my
> > > > > > sphere of influence.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm also willing to discuss this offline with anyone who feels the
> > > need
> > > > to
> > > > > > do so.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > HTH. Additions and corrections welcome.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Pete
> > > > > > Author of "Oracle8i: Architecture and Administration Exam Cram"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Controlling developers is like herding cats."
> > > > > > Kevin Loney, Oracle DBA Handbook
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Oh no, it's not. It's much harder than that!"
> > > > > > Bruce Pihlamae, long-term Oracle DBA
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Daniel A. Morgan" <damorgan_at_exesolutions.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:3C592AE1.B0E78D3B_at_exesolutions.com...
> > > > > > > Thank you for your thoughtful and valuable input. Now can you
> > > explain
> > > > to
> > > > > > us why
> > > > > > > we are seeing gross errors of fact in the Oracle Press books
> that
> > > are
> > > > for
> > > > > > OCP
> > > > > > > training? My email to Jason Couchman has gone (as must confess I
> > > > > > anticipated)
> > > > > > > unanswered.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And should we infer that it is just the book that is incorrect
> ...
> > > or
> > > > that
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > book is an accurate reflection of the test and that the test too
> is
> > > > > > incorrect?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On the subject of Oracle's education courses I have always found
> > > them
> > > > > > valuable
> > > > > > > ... if viewed in the context of what they are. They are a great
> way
> > > to
> > > > get
> > > > > > > started with a new product or new release of a product. They are
> > > not,
> > > > in
> > > > > > my
> > > > > > > estimation, intended to create competency.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thank you.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Daniel Morgan
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Pete Sharman wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I always find these discussions fascinating, particularly
> since my
> > > > role
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > Oracle is half training our consultants on new releases of the
> > > > database.
> > > > > > > > One of the things I've always done in my time with Oracle
> (which
> > > is
> > > > over
> > > > > > 7
> > > > > > > > years now) is to review the course material as it comes out,
> so
> > > I'd
> > > > like
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > make some comments on Howard's viewpoint.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Firstly, one of the major difficulties when developing
> courseware
> > > > for
> > > > > > > > something with as many different capabilities as the Oracle
> > > database
> > > > has
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > determining what to include and what not to include in the
> > > > courseware.
> > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > we covered everything you needed to know to be a competent DBA
> in
> > > > the
> > > > > > basic
> > > > > > > > training (and by that I mean the DBA Fundamentals I and II
> courses
> > > > and
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > Performance Tuning course), guess what? You'd probably be
> paying
> > > > for 6
> > > > > > > > months worth of training (OK, maybe I exaggerate, but you get
> the
> > > > > > point).
> > > > > > > > That's why the basic training was developed in the way it
> was - to
> > > > give
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > the basic knowledge you need to be able to perform normal DBA
> > > tasks.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > As a result, some of the less frequently used functionality
> must
> > > be
> > > > left
> > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > of that course. I'd include things like partitioning in that
> > > > category.
> > > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > > not sure what the percentage is, but if you polled people in
> this
> > > > > > newsgroup
> > > > > > > > I think you would find less than 50% actually use it.
> However, it
> > > > is
> > > > > > still
> > > > > > > > important to have training on this, and that's why we develop
> more
> > > > > > advanced
> > > > > > > > courseware. The more advanced courseware expects you to know
> the
> > > > > > > > fundamentals, and then spend more time being trained on things
> > > like
> > > > > > > > Partitioning, AQ, Advanced Replication and so on.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Secondly, to get valuable training on more complex
> functionality
> > > > > > requires
> > > > > > > > dedicated courseware. Take, for example, RAC. One of the
> hardest
> > > > parts
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > writing the 9i New Features for Administrators course was
> Chapter
> > > > 12,
> > > > > > Real
> > > > > > > > Application Clusters. It's an incredibly important are of
> > > > knowledge,
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > one that is far more widely accepted as useful to the general
> > > Oracle
> > > > > > > > population than OPS ever was. However, we already have a full
> 5
> > > > days
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > that course. To cover it in more detail is just not possible,
> so
> > > we
> > > > > > > > introduce it in the 9i NFDBA course so people are aware of how
> > > > useful
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > technology is. There is a separate 5 day course on RAC due to
> be
> > > > > > released
> > > > > > > > soon, which takes you into the gory detail you need to know
> for
> > > how
> > > > to
> > > > > > > > implement and use it. I'd venture to say that's the major
> > > > difference
> > > > > > > > between the New Features course and any other one. The New
> > > Features
> > > > > > course
> > > > > > > > has so many areas to cover that it can only introduce the
> concepts
> > > > to
> > > > > > you,
> > > > > > > > which you then need to investigate more (either yourself or on
> > > > > > additional
> > > > > > > > training).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Finally let me say where I see OCP to be valuable, personally.
> I
> > > > > > started
> > > > > > > > life in Oracle as a DBA instructor after 4 years as a DBA
> before
> > > > joining
> > > > > > > > Oracle. I started the certification for one reason only - it
> got
> > > > really
> > > > > > > > embarassing as an instructor for someone to say "Are you a
> > > certified
> > > > > > DBA?"
> > > > > > > > and to have to answer no. Now that I'm no longer in Oracle
> > > > Education,
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > is far less of a hassle, but I continue to keep up my
> > > certification.
> > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > reasons? One - it's cheaper to keep it up by doing the New
> > > Features
> > > > > > exam
> > > > > > > > each time than it would be to renew it afresh if I let it
> expire.
> > > > Two -
> > > > > > > > there are always areas in the exams that I don't know because
> I
> > > > don't
> > > > > > use
> > > > > > > > them in my day to day job, so it's really useful to find out
> about
> > > > this
> > > > > > > > stuff so I can determine if it would be useful to employ when
> I do
> > > > need
> > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > Three - before I joined Oracle, I lost out on a promotion
> purely
> > > snd
> > > > > > simply
> > > > > > > > because the other guy had a piece of paper and I didn't.
> That's
> > > all
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > could separate us on, and it ended up costing me thousands of
> > > > dollars
> > > > > > over
> > > > > > > > the next couple of years. :(
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > HTH. Additions and corrections welcome.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Pete
> > > > > > > > Author of "Oracle8i: Architecture and Administration Exam
> Cram"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Controlling developers is like herding cats."
> > > > > > > > Kevin Loney, Oracle DBA Handbook
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Oh no, it's not. It's much harder than that!"
> > > > > > > > Bruce Pihlamae, long-term Oracle DBA
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Howard J. Rogers" <dba_at_hjrdba.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:3c583ff4$0$8455$afc38c87_at_news.optusnet.com.au...
> > > > > > > > > I might agree with you, except that the DBA stream for the
> OCP
> > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > mention partitioning once (it's not even on the Performance
> > > Tuning
> > > > > > course,
> > > > > > > > > which is madness). It doesn't mention Advanced Replication
> at
> > > all
> > > > > > (unless
> > > > > > > > > you're upgrading to 9i OCP, in whcih case it mysteriously
> makes
> > > an
> > > > > > > > > appearance). It doesn't deal with Advanced Queueing. It
> > > doesn't
> > > > deal
> > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > Parallel Server (again, 9i upgrade has 1 rather scanty
> chapter
> > > > devoted
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > RACs).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'm not saying that the DBA stream is not challenging or
> > > > > > informative -look
> > > > > > > > > at the number of posts we get here for 'why can't I back up
> my
> > > > online
> > > > > > redo
> > > > > > > > > logs?', as a simple example. But forget all this nonsense
> about
> > > > 'you
> > > > > > will
> > > > > > > > > learn *all* the features of the product'. You won't, simple
> as
> > > > that.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If all you have is an OCP, it tells me that you know the
> basics.
> > > > Sort
> > > > > > of.
> > > > > > > > > And that's about it. The real nub of complex database
> > > > administration
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > entirely absent (which is frustrating enough as an
> instructor,
> > > let
> > > > > > alone
> > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > a would-be DBA who actually wants to learn his craft).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Regards
> > > > > > > > > HJR
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > Oracle Resources: http://www.hjrdba.com
> > > > > > > > > ============================
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Christian Svensson" <chse30_at_hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:ccc2a7eb.0201300648.f6fdd3_at_posting.google.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >Last I just want say if a future employer have to
> choose
> > > > between
> > > > > > two
> > > > > > > > > > > >consultants with exact same years of experience and one
> of
> > > > them
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > >DBA OCP, which one do you think they will think of most
> ?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > That is IMHO a very good argument. And the ONLY one
> going
> > > for
> > > > OCP
> > > > > > > > > > > certification in its present format.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The only one ? How about:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > - You will get paid more (if your employer agree to this
> of
> > > > course)
> > > > > > > > > > - You will learn more in the studying process, i.e you
> will be
> > > > aware
> > > > > > > > > > of "all" the features/options
> > > > > > > > > > - You get a written proof of you knowledge (you should of
> > > course
> > > > > > also
> > > > > > > > > > have at least a year of practical experience)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I also want to make it crystal clear that I dont belive in
> > > > studying
> > > > > > 1
> > > > > > > > > > week about 12 hours a day and then take the exam and you
> are
> > > > > > > > > > automatically an Oracle DBA. To be a DBA you need
> experience,
> > > > end of
> > > > > > > > > > discussion. But studying for the OCP is in my mind one way
> to
> > > > get a
> > > > > > > > > > better DBA or to get a better understanding of Oracle.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Regards.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > /Christian
> > > > > > > > >
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Received on Wed Feb 13 2002 - 11:35:06 CST