Kimberly, I'm with you and like you I only took the 8 test because at
the time, my employer paid for the tests and gave me a bonus to pass
them(like $250/test and $1000K when all done, if i remember correctly),
so i had incentive :).
Joe
Kimberly Smith wrote:
> I for the most part have stayed out of this whole OCP thing cause I too
> think its fairly worthless to determine if someone has the skills necessary
> to perform the job of DBA. And that is despite the fact I have gone
> ahead and gotten my Oracle8 DBA and then upgrading to 8i after.
>
> That, however, does not make it worthless in getting an interview. I
> believe
> that we have already pretty much gone over the whole fact that you have
> to get by HR before getting an interview and you do need to have something
> to
> get you that edge. Sometimes all it takes is the OCP. Are managers wrong
> to let it influence them? It depends. If they are saying, that person has
> an OCP, they must be good, then yes, they are being influenced incorrectly.
> However, if they are saying hey, that person took some time to get an OCP.
> Lets bring them in for an interview and see if they know what they are
> talking
> about then I say its a good thing. And so far I have seem more of the later
> then the former, at least within the company I work for.
>
> To me it just shows that I am keeping up to date on my database of choice.
> I back it up with my experience. And if that gets me a job over someone
> with similar experience but thought it was not worth their time to get the
> OCP then sucks to be you. Its not predominate on my resume but bet your
> ass that its there.
>
> Granted, having my company pay for the tests make it an easier decision to
> go get them and I am not so sure I would be so willing to do it if the
> company
> was not willing. If the company is paying, get the damn chip off your
> shoulder
> and go take the tests. If you are good as you say you are and the tests
> as easy as you say they are then what the hell is the big deal. I have yet
> to take longer then 15 minutes to do the test (including the survey).
> Including the drive and stuff surely you can all spare an hour and increase
> the cash inflow at Oracle....
>
> This email was not directed specifically at you Joe, just replying to the
> whole OCP thing (especially since you seem to have the same thought process
> in
> this case). OK, back to the wine...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2002 6:10 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> Edward, i beg to differ, the ONLY thing that OCP is good for is a
> discriminator between to evenly qualified/interviewed candidates.
>
> As someone who does hiring of oracle DBAs and who's been one for 10
> years and is OCP, I'm skeptical of those who make a big deal out of
> being OCP, since that tends to make me believe that they DONT have the
> experience to back it up.
>
> Joe
> 8 and 8i OCP(but rarely makes it known).
>
> Edward Lock wrote:
>
>
>>As someone with 7 years in the HR (Compensation) field, and now in the
>>IT/ERP field working on my Oracle DBA OCP, I can speak with some
>>knowledge and experience.
>>
>>
>>
>>Using the term "Entry Level" on a resume is self-defeating. Most
>>technical resumes are still screened by by the HR departments first,
>>before the hiring managers even see them. A good recruiter will be able
>>to identify whether you have the experience or not. If not, they will
>>defer a judgment call to the hiring IT manager anyway. That doesn't
>>mean that you should lie on your resume or deceive anyone. But don't
>>shoot yourself in the foot before you even get your foot in the door.
>>
>>
>>
>>Annual salaries for DBAs are, indeed, coming down. If you can get ahold
>>of a good IT salary survey, make note of not only the average salary,
>>but the median salary. The median salary is what is commonly used to
>>benchmark a position--not the average salary. If a formal salary
>>structure exists at a company, they will normally use the median as the
>>compa-ratio for the particular paygrade or step. Use common sense, do
>>your homework, and ask what you're worth; but always leave room for
>>compromise.
>>
>>
>>
>>MS Access IS a relational database. However it is a file-server
>>application, not a client-server database, and was not designed to
>>handle large transactional systems over a large network. It is designed
>>for small to medium sized, non mission-critical business environments.
>>Properly designed, MS Access can serve many purposes, but you will never
>>find Payroll or Financial systems using MS Access as a db platform or
>>front-end. MS Access is a great environment for learning databases and
>>SQL, but it is only a starting point.
>>
>>
>>
>>Concerning Oracle training--use everything that you can afford. If it's
>>a career-change, then consider formal Oracle University instructor-led
>>training classes. If you're already in the field, then self-study may
>>work. It takes tremendous self-discipline to go the self-study route
>>with books and CDS or online training.
>>
>>
>>
>>People who say that the OCP is valueless to the market have never
>>tested. I say to them--why not test?
>>
>>
>>
>>Edward Lock
>>
>>Sr. Programmer Analyst
>>
>>PeopleSoft Project Office, University of Houston System
>>
>>ejlock_at_central.uh.edu <mailto:ejlock_at_central.uh.edu>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> *From:* Karniotis, Stephen
>>
>> *Sent:* Monday, December 31, 2001 12:08 PM
>>
>> *To:* Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>>
>> *Subject:* RE: Becoming a DBA questions
>>
>>
>>
>> Good afternoon all:
>>
>> I have been holding back on replying to this email because I really
>> wanted to see what some of the other answers were, especially ones
>> related
>> to OCP. Rachel C. will understand as my answers will be very direct.
>>
>> 1. What is the average salary range for an entry-level DBA position?
>>
> Or
>
>> a position for someone who is just starting out as a DBA?
>> >>> As a person that has worked as an Oracle DBA for over 13
>> years, the entry-level salary had changed quite dramatically. From
>>
> the
>
>> mid-to late 1990s when starting DBAs could make upwards of 100K to
>> "REALITY"
>> when entry-level DBAs should be making no more than 70K. Some may
>> disagree,
>> however, I don't think paying high salaries is warranted just
>> because the
>> person is a DBA. If they don't have the experience, they don't
>> deserve the
>> high monetary return. I would say that 50K is probably on the high
>> end for
>> entry-level DBAs. The days of high salaries, similarly the high
>> consulting
>> rates, are gone and organizations are now back to reality. I
>> actually had
>> someone whom has been out of work for over 6 months refuse a salary
>> of 65K
>> as a DBA because he felt it was demeaning for him to accept it.
>>
>> 2. In a job resume, should I request an entry-level position or would
>> that set me up for no phone calls?
>> >>> I disagree with everyone else regarding not using
>> "entry-level" on your resume. If you have no experience and you are
>> looking
>> to work in a team environment, then using this wording is
>> acceptable. You
>> will have to pick the job postings carefully so you don't send
>> resumes to
>> organizations that require lots of experience. If you can control
>>
> that,
>
>> then remove "entry-level" and use "junior" instead.
>>
>> 3. What are some steps I should take to becoming a DBA w/ the
>> background that I have (ie. generated databases w/ MS Access)?
>> >>> Well, MS Access, although people consider this a relational
>> database, is not. It is a file system that looks like a relational
>> database. Generating databases in MS Access is nothing like creating
>> database environments in Oracle. You will honestly need to start from
>> scratch. The data modeling and application database creating may be
>> similar
>> if you followed the normalization rules and generally accepted
>> guidelines.
>> I would highly recommend using either Oracle's online learning
>>
> network,
>
>> locating a college/university where they teach Oracle. These do
>> exist as I
>> have taught several of these classes in Michigan. I would highly
>> recommend
>> contacting the Los Angeles Oracle User's Group for the location of
>> courses
>> that are taught.
>> If you are a devoted person when it comes to online training, then
>> Oracle online learning is a good start. There are other
>> organizations that
>> offer Oracle online training, however, I don't remember their names.
>> Understand that online training only provides you the bare basics.
>> It is
>> not going to give you the exposure and experience needed to be a
>> true DBA.
>> a) Recommended training/education in Los Angeles area?
>> b) Where do you recommend I study & is online training valuable?
>>
>> 4. If I could learn Oracle software on my own through Independent
>>
> study
>
>> (books & reference sites), could this be sufficient enough to go
>> about to
>> get a job?
>> >>> OK. This is where I disagree with everyone. The OCP is
>>
> valueless
>
>> to the market. It looks good on the resume because almost no
>> organization
>> really understands how it is obtained. As one of the authors for
>> the first
>> independent Oracle certification, we designed the certification exam
>> so that
>> inexperienced Oracle DBAs COULD NOT pass it. It required
>> Experience!!! The
>> Oracle OCP only requires you to take some training, read some books,
>>
> and
>
>> then take the exam. We as experienced DBAs has proven this time
>> after time
>> by giving the exam to people that have never been DBAs in their
>> careers and
>> have only read some basic Oracle Concepts material. There are a lot
>> of OCP
>> DBAs that still don't understand how to get stuff out of Oracle's Data
>> Dictionary or, for that matter, what is a data dictionary. I see no
>> value
>> in the OCP except as a training mechanism. When high school
>> students can
>> pass the exam without any experience in Oracle, that should tell you
>>
> the
>
>> value of the exam itself.
>>
>> If you can learn portions of the Oracle software on your own, Great!
>> It will be impossible to learn all of Oracle on your own as the
>> software is
>> vast in features and requires different configurations that you may
>> not have
>> available to you. In teams of acquiring a job from learning the
>> software,
>> you may be able to get a job working in a team of Oracle DBAs.
>> However, I
>> will be the first one here to say that I would not hire you as a
>> stand alone
>> DBA with just that type of experience. For small shops, maybe, but
>>
> for
>
>> enterprises, no way.
>>
>> a) Is the OCP certification necessary?
>> b) If I took this independent study route instead of formal training
>> from like a vocational school, would the steps to getting a job (or
>> even my
>> OCP certification) be the same? Or would it be more difficult without
>> formal training?
>> Independent study mechanisms are typically not structured in
>> learning capabilities. You need a structured model to properly
>> learn the
>> ridiculous things in Oracle, especially with Oracle9i. I would
>> start with
>> some basic online training and then move to a semi-formal study
>>
> program.
>
>> From there, either vocational, self-study or a more formal class
>> would be
>> beneficial.
>> 5. What are some valuable books and resources to aid in my training?
>> >>> Rachel's DBA 101 book would be an excellent choice. Some of the
>> books by O'Riely and Oracle Press would also help you. Many people
>>
> have
>
>> given excellent suggestions here. There are so many titles that I
>> would not
>> beg to know them offhand.
>>
>>
>> 6. How much does Oracle9i cost & would it be worth it to get since i
>> want to learn? Are there evaluation copies out there that I can get
>>
> my
>
>> hands on?
>> >>> You can download Oracle9i from www.oracle.com. In terms of
>> cost, it
>> varies depending on the number of CPUs and hardware chosen. You can
>> also
>> pay for an Oracle Technology Network membership and receive the CDs
>>
> from
>
>> Oracle. Understand that Oracle is not a small software product. The
>> requirements on your hardware are quite large, so make sure you have
>> enough
>> bandwidth in terms of CPU and memory before investing in it.
>> 7. What are the basic introductory courses/resources/training I could
>> do to learn or get started in DBA training?
>> 8. Basically, please list the steps you took to become a DBA (starting
>> with education/training to job entry) and how you sould suggest I
>> should go
>> about starting to learn the fundamentals and then more in depth?
>>
>> 7 & 8 are too generic. I would advise contacting your own DBA staff
>>
> and
>
>> asking them this question. I always recommend becoming an Oracle
>> developer
>> before becoming a DBA. DBAs that have never developed Oracle-based
>> software
>> will never understand the issues related to query optimization,
>> performance
>> management, etc. as well as if they had attempted to create an
>> Oracle-centric application. In many cases, I have seen Oracle DBAs
>> with no
>> development experience really screw up an application environment.
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>>
>>
>> Thank You
>>
>> Stephen P. Karniotis
>> Technical Alliance Manager
>> Compuware Corporation
>> Direct: (248) 865-4350
>> Mobile: (248) 408-2918
>> Email: Stephen.Karniotis_at_Compuware.com
>> Web: www.compuware.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 11:15 AM
>> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>> Subject: Re: Becoming a DBA questions
>>
>> 1. Depends on the company/part of the country and the economy.
>> 2. State your experience with other databases. Once you get Oracle up
>> and running at home, add that so they know you have installed it (IMHO
>> installing on Linux is more impressive as it is very close to unix,
>>
> but
>
>> doing it under windows is better than nothing.) Don't say "looking for
>> entry-level Oracle dba job" in your mission statement. Say something
>> like "looking for the opportunity to move my proven database design
>>
> and
>
>> administration skills to a new level with Oracle" or something to that
>> extent.
>> 3. If you are good at self-study, Oracle has online learning that
>> appears pretty reasonable ($99/month or something like that). But get
>> yourself an Oracle installation to practice on first.
>> 4. Quite possible to get a job with self-study and training. Passing
>> your OCP tests will help you get that first job. After that it is
>>
> nice
>
>> to put on your biography when you submit papers to present at the
>> conferences and user groups.
>> 6. I'm not in the office today, but I'm sure someone will correct me
>>
> on
>
>> the title, but the two books I think are great are
>> a. Oracle 8i dba from Oracle Press. I think that is the one that has a
>> great example of real-life paper to database that explains things very
>> well.
>> b. DBA 101 by Rachel Carmichael (and others). I haven't had the chance
>> to read it yet, but I've got a friend who is an aspiring dba so I've
>> looked at it and he really loves it. And since I'm a big fan of
>> Rachel's work, I have to recommend it.
>> 8. Well, I have been working with databases for many years. But my
>> first Oracle job was an accident. I was hired for other skills that I
>> had and the day I started my new manager said "the Oracle DBA is
>> leaving. You've got a lot of database experience on your resume. Want
>>
> to
>
>> be our Oracle DBA?" The rest is history. My advice to you is to get
>> Oracle installed and decide on a project that you can use and
>>
> maintain.
>
>> I built a contact manager using an Access front-end. I kept learning
>> new ways to improve the design and adding new features. Besides
>>
> coming
>
>> in very handy for job searches, it gave me something to discuss when
>> networking and someone would hear that I worked with databases and ask
>> what I had worked on recently. I would also recommend looking up a
>> local user group (start at www.ioug.org and click on the User Group
>> link). Attend and make friends. These will be your peers and if you're
>> lucky, you may find someone that will become your mentor. They may
>>
> not
>
>> be in a position to hire you, but they (we) are generally connected to
>> the pulse of the hiring market and know when someone is looking to
>> expand or hire a replacement. They can also help you learn new things
>> and correct any misconceptions you have. At the social portion of the
>> event (most user groups have conversation time) find someone who has
>> been a dba for a number of years and ask them if you can talk to them.
>> Explain what your understanding of something is and then pay attention
>> as they either correct you or add to your knowledge. Before you know
>> it, you will be sitting in an interview and the interviewer will ask
>>
> you
>
>> to explain how to use pctfree and you will know from your
>>
> conversations
>
>> and testing.
>>
>> Good luck.
>>
>>
>> Stephen Andert
>> Scottsdale, Arizona
>>
>> >>> LBanzali_at_aol.com 12/31 2:00 AM >>>
>> > Questions for a Database Administrator:
>> 1. What is the average salary range for an entry-level DBA position?
>>
> Or
>
>> a
>> position for someone who is just starting out as a DBA?
>>
>> 2. In a job resume, should I request an entry-level position or would
>> that
>> set me up for no phone calls?
>>
>> 3. What are some steps I should take to becoming a DBA w/ the
>> background
>> that I have (ie. generated databases w/ MS Access)?
>>
>> a) Recommended training/education in Los Angeles area?
>>
>> b) Where do you recommend I study & is online training valuable?
>>
>> 4. If I could learn Oracle software on my own through Independent
>> study
>> (books & reference sites), could this be sufficient enough to go about
>> to get
>> a job?
>>
>> a) Is the OCP certification necessary?
>>
>> b) If I took this independent study route instead of formal training
>> from
>> like a vocational school, would the steps to getting a job (or even my
>> OCP
>> certification) be the same? Or would it be more difficult without
>> formal
>> training?
>>
>> 5. What are some valuable books and resources to aid in my training?
>>
>>
>> 6. How much does Oracle9i cost & would it be worth it to get since i
>> want to
>> learn? Are there evaluation copies out there that I can get my hands
>> on?
>>
>> 7. What are the basic introductory courses/resources/training I could
>> do to
>> learn or get started in DBA training?
>>
>> 8. Basically, please list the steps you took to become a DBA
>>
> (starting
>
>> with
>> education/training to job entry) and how you sould suggest I should go
>> about
>> starting to learn the fundamentals and then more in depth?
>>
>> Thank you!! I really appreciate your help!!
>>
>> Please, write to me @
>>
>> LBanzali_at_aol.com
>>
>> thanks!!
>> smiles & happy new year 2002!!!!
>>
>>
>> --
>> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
>> --
>> Author: Stephen Andert
>> INET: StephenAndert_at_firsthealth.com
>>
>> Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
>> San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
>> to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
>> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
>> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
>> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
>> --
>> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
>> --
>> Author: Karniotis, Stephen
>> INET: Stephen_Karniotis_at_compuware.com
>>
>> Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
>> San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
>> to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
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>> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
>> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Joe Testa, Oracle DBA
> Want to have a good time with a bunch of geeks? Check out:
> http://www.geekcruises.com/standard_interface/future_cruises.html
> I'm presenting, when registering drop my name :)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
> --
> Author: Joe Testa
> INET: teci_at_the-testas.net
>
> Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
> San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
>
>
--
Joe Testa, Oracle DBA
Want to have a good time with a bunch of geeks? Check out:
http://www.geekcruises.com/standard_interface/future_cruises.html
I'm presenting, when registering drop my name :)
--
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
--
Author: Joe Testa
INET: teci_at_the-testas.net
Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
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Received on Tue Jan 01 2002 - 23:21:41 CST
