Re: Nulls, integrity, the closed world assumption and events

JOG wrote:
> dawn wrote:
> > Keith H Duggar wrote:
> > > dawn wrote:
> > > > Walt wrote:
> > > > > Many have attempted, but you have been expounding on the same incorrect
> > > > > ideas for something like five years now.
> > > >
> > > > Could you point me to proof that something I expound is incorrect?
> > > > Perhaps just starting by telling me what I think to be true that you
> > > > think false, or vice versa, would be helpful. I would very much
> > > > appreciate knowing.
> > >
> > > RM != SQL
> > > QED
> > >
> > > Keith -- Fraud 6
> >
> > Hi Keith - I do not equate RM with SQL. I do think, however, that we
> > would not have SQL were it not for the RM.
> > The RM could be seen as a primary "culprit" in giving us SQL.
> > Additionally, most, if not all, implementations that are based on the
> > relational model employ SQL as the means of interacting with the DBMS.
> > Marketing and other materials for a couple of decades now use the
> > acronym RDBMS when referring to SQL-DBMS's for good reason.
> > [snip]
>
> It is not that you confuse RM with SQL.

Good, because I have heard that a number of times, and I did not think it to be the case.

> It is that because RM doesn't
> do everything you want

I don't even think of it as "doing" anything, but as "being" so that might be a problem.

> (and only an idiot would think that the RM is
> the last word in data management),

Agreed. For a couple of decades it dominated in the world of database buzzwords, however. That is only starting to change (perhaps) very recently.

> you promote throwing the baby out
> with the bath water,

I can think of a few things I would throw out (the three I mentioned). I don't know if those are what you are calling "the baby" or if it is related to my questions (and not fully developed opinions) on typing, metadata as data (related to DBMS constraints or lack thereof), or additional functions, such as navigation, in addition to set-based functions. I do not throw out relations nor functions on them, but I do favor also talking about relations as functions, since I have rarely (if ever) worked with relations that are not in data-based software development.

> and losing all of the invaluable insights that
> Codd brought.

I definitely do not want to make the same mistake made by some who started with the RM around '70 or thereafter and dumped the wealth of best practices in data-based software development that preceeded it. I have an appreciation for relations and set-based functions. I understand how elegant it is if we can add (at least some) constraints in as propositions in the schema. But if you are talking about 1NF or 3VL, for example (and I do not know what you are referring to when suggesting I am losing all such insights), while I can appreciate the simple elegance of 1NF, it would be fair to say that any elegance in the use of 3VL is lost on me. I am quite sure I'm not alone in that regard, however.

> This is also why you generate such resentment Dawn.

Only here. I did not realize when I started asking questions (which I do by stating opinions and finding out what I'm missing) that this was perceived by most as a forum for relational theory alone. Live and learn, eh?

> Saying RM != SQL is just shorthand for that I think.

It is inaccurate, however, so thanks for recognizing that. Although your explanation was helpful, it did not exactly point me to what it is that I seem to believe that is not the case. What I think might be the case, however, is the fact that one of the buzz words that I decided has been harming software development productivity is "relational" as in "relational databases" and "relational model." The adoption of this buzzword and related implementations is what dealt an almost-but-not-quite death blow to models such as MUMPs (now quite alive in Cache') and PICK (also still alive, now in Cache' as well as IBM U2. I am starting to think that if I held most of the opinions that I have reached but did not at the same time try to knock out the "relational" term as king-of-the-hill, I might not have incited some here unnecessarily.

cheers! --dawn Received on Mon Jan 22 2007 - 03:06:13 CET