Re: The MySQL/PHP pair

"Dan" <guntermann_at_verizon.com> wrote in message news:a3tid.1503$Uy5.713_at_trnddc07...
>
> "Laconic2" <laconic2_at_comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:ybCdnbl0vtbfrhfcRVn-ig_at_comcast.com...
> >
> > "Gene Wirchenko" <genew_at_mail.ocis.net> wrote in message
> > news:ed1io01krh95t861k6b7bbh6pmnvhp7nd2_at_4ax.com...
> >
> >> Well, you harp about a mathematical proof for the necessity of
> >> 1NF, so how you supply a mathematical proof?
> >
> > I beg your pardon, but it's not up to her to prove this, mathematically.
> > If
> > her assertion that Codd et al never made such a claim holds up to the
> > study
> > of the published work, then her claim of the absence of demonstrated
> > methematical necessity for 1NF stands.
>
> Well, then it doesn't stand any longer, does it?

I actually didn't say that he never made such a claim (although I didn't know if he had) but that he originally was well aware that normalization was based on pragmatics and not on some mathematical principle.

> > If the were to make a further claim that 1NF is mathematically
> > unnecessary,
> > it would be necessary for her to back up that claim. But her claim,
AFAIK
> > is not that. It is that there is no claim or proof that 1NF is
> > mathematically necessary.
> >
> I disagree. This is exactly how I interpreted her statements. I would
like
> to see someone follow through for once.

My claim is that there is nothing about modeling data logically as relations that requires 1NF (as previously defined).

> >
> > But her expereince is that 1NF was a huge obstacle to productivity among
> > Oracle teams, when compared to COBOL/CICS teams or Pick teams.
>
> I still wonder whether this is actually experience or a hidden agenda.

I have no hidden agenda unless it is also hiding from me. I have an interest in advancing the discipline of software development and ongoing maintenance. One of the obstables might be RDBMS's as currently implemented. My experience and intuition RATHER THAN ANY proven theory or emperical data suggests that we need to do something decidedly different with data storage for at least a good number of software implementations. Maybe one of these days it will all be clear how to either prove something mathematically or gather the right emperical data to bring this together, but until then, I'm still on a search.

> Empirical proof would do a lot to bolster her case.

Yes it would and I have looked to find some. There is considerable anecdotal information and various little experiments with such things as performance that individual companies have done, but I have asked before if anyone can think of a means to gather such emperical evidence and haven't gotten a lot of good suggestions. Can you think of an experiement that would lead to anyone believing anything they do not already believe about varoius data models?

> You have chosen to give
> her the benefit of the doubt; I have chosen not to.

Ah well.

> I remember the tone and
> content when she first arrived here.

Golly, I don't. I remember BB calling me an idiot repeatedly with me persisting in asking my questions. What was it about my tone that was troublesome? I'll admit to considerable ignorance, but not to any hidden agendas. Cheers anyway. --dawn

> - Dan
Received on Fri Nov 05 2004 - 02:47:54 CET