Re: Clean Object Class Design -- Circle/Ellipse

Date, while well regarded, is not a god. Referncing his points as unassailable is merely an argument from authority, which doesn't prove anything

Bob Badour wrote:
>
> >Ok. I was addressing a larger point, though. For him to make comments
> >about OO, he really should know Smalltalk.
>
> His bibliographies lead me to conclude that he does know it. Don't you think
> it is just a tad hubristic to assume he doesn't simply because he arrives at
> different conclusions from you?
>
> >If *I*, a mere practitioner
> >without a formal computer science background, can read him and conclude
> >"he's complaining about things that are easily solved", then there is a
> >problem.
>
> A problem with whom, though? That's the question.
>
> >> >"Date just doesn't know Smalltalk and he just hasn't thought about
 pattern
> >> >X, Y, and Z to do what he is proposing".
> >>
> >> That's funny. I read the same things and I think "Date clearly
 understands
> >> programming languages. Just see how brilliantly he sweeps away the
 needless
> >> complexity of patterns X, Y and Z. I wish I had such a programming
 language
> >> without all the arbitrary shortcomings of a language like x where x in
> >> C++, Smalltalk, Java, Eiffel, ADA, VB ... }"
> >
> >Yes, how funny. Just what language do you think we should implement his
> >approach in?
>
> A good, well-thought language.
>
> >> Did you ever bother to check Date's references and bibliography to see
> >> whether he might have considered Smalltalk or patterns X, Y and Z ? It
 seems
> >> unfair to Date to immediately assume he did not.
> >
> >Didn't bother. I could tell from his writing. You can't *hide* these
 things,
> >you know.
>
> Have you considered that you are doing nothing more than reinforcing a
> stereotype of british arrogance?
>
> >Because they solved the things he was complaining about.
>
> What makes you find their solutions superior?
>
> >> >I was nodding my head to Date's
> >> >points and thinking: "Yup, can do".
> >>
> >> But at what relative cost?
> >
> >Today it means giving up the relational model and working with OO instead.
> >Of course, this is unacceptable to him.
>
> Any well-informed, rational database practitioner would find the idea of
> giving up the relational model for a navigational model just as
> unacceptable. Apparently, you have ignored the fact that we had navigational
> models many years ago and gave them up as impractical.
>
> >> >And that was sad, because by criticizing
> >> >C++ and thinking its OO (:-), he gets written off by an field that
> >> >could use his help.
> >>
> >> He did not criticize C++, per se. He merely responded to Stroustrup's
 essay
> >> as a widely recognized, respected, published exemplar of the counter
> >> argument. He could just as easily have chosen any other published
 exemplar
> >> of the counter argument based on any other OO language.
> >
> >Sorry, I led you astray. I was not refering to Stroustrup. I was refering
 to
> >Date's railing against OO where it was plain he was railing against
 *crappy*
> >OO languages. Hence my C++ comment.
>
> Since Smalltalk is just as crappy, I have difficulty discerning a point in
> the above.
>
> >> Date cannot help it if Stroustrup bases his position regarding the
> >> Circle-Ellipse issue on arbitrary limitations of C++.
> >
> >I quite agree, but I have no first-hand knowledge of this issue.
> >
> >Now, someone is going to challenge me on what those things/patterns
> >were. I have a badly filed scrap of paper in which I wrote it down years
> >ago.
> >One was (1) So just add the Collection/Relational interface to the
> >Object class.
>
> That does not do away with the inherent complexity -- it just tacks on more.
>
> >Another was (2) He really needs to know that its possible
> >to program on the class side of the class, e.g., trap every instantiation
> >and maintain Dictionaries of all instances of the class.
>
> Could you elaborate on the above? I fail to see a problem seeking the above
> solution.
 

-- 
James A. Robertson
Product Manager (Smalltalk), Cincom
jarober_at_mail.com
<Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>