Re: AW: Copy-on-write file systems

Nenad,

I circulated your question internally, and the only response (so far) was...

    /We �like� NFS based on our in-house expertise, its stability and     maturity.� When building for MSSQL, we didn�t have confidence in the     NFS version for Windows, so we were forced to use something else and     landed on iSCSI which had some decent plumbing already on Illumos.�     We would�ve preferred NFS for everything.� We can retrofit     UNIX/Linux with iSCSI if there's enough customer demand, but it     wouldn't be easy or cheap./

So it wasn't so much arguments that were marshalled *against* iSCSI on UNIX/Linux, just not enough in favor.

Hope that helps...

-Tim

On 9/5/17 12:45, Noveljic Nenad wrote:
>
> Hey Tim,
>
> Thank you for your answers.
>
> Times are changing indeed. In any case, it is wise to evaluate all of
> the options when facing a major change.
>
> It has been a bit unconventional, though very smart decision to put
> databases on NAS. You can snapshot/clone databases between servers
> without moving a single byte across!
>
> What where the arguments against iSCSI for Unix/Linux platforms?
>
> Nenad
>
> Twitter: _at_NenadNoveljic
>
> Home page: http://nenadnoveljic.com/
>
> *From:*Tim Gorman [mailto:tim.evdbt_at_gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Dienstag, 5. September 2017 19:41
> *To:* Noveljic Nenad
> *Cc:* ORACLE-L
> *Subject:* Re: AW: Copy-on-write file systems
>
> Nenad,
>
> Agreed on how solutions evolve over the years.� Back in the 1980s I
> worked on custom-built in-house CRM solutions for medical and travel
> businesses, but that would be foolish today.� In 1994, I helped a
> large telcomm build a custom in-house general ledger application,
> which even at the time was raising eyebrows even on the team, asking
> "why are we doing this?"
>
> Among our best customers are those who have been using ZFS for a long
> time, know it inside and out, but now prefer to focus on the results
> of what ZFS does, not the process of getting it to do what they want.
>
> As to your questions...
>
> 1. *Are OpenZFS and DxFS fully integrated into the Linux Kernel?*
> * /DxFS is based on OpenZFS, and Delphix DxOS is based on
> Illumos, a variant of OpenSolaris/
> o /DxFS and DxOS are indeed very tightly integrated/
> 2. *Have you seen many Oracle installations running on OpenZFS_at_Linux
> apart from Delphix?*
> * /DxOS/DxFS provides block storage for database files from
> database platforms like Oracle, SQL Server, SAP ASE (Sybase),
> SAP HANA, IBM DB2, MySQL, PostgreSQL, and full-stack
> applications like Oracle E-Business Suites/
> o /Unfortunately, I personally have never worked with
> OpenZFS on Linux at all (yet)/
> 3. *How do Oracle databases at Delphix access the database files �
> via NFS or are the file systems locally mounted? *
> * /Delphix makes database and application files available to
> database instances and application software via
> network-attached storage (NAS)/
> o /For UNIX/Linux platforms, that is indeed NFS;� for
> Windows, that is iSCSI./
>
>
> Many thanks!
>
> -Tim
>
> On 9/5/17 10:42, Noveljic Nenad wrote:
>
> Tim,
>
> I fully agree that there is more than one way to approach the
> problem. A self-engineered system is just one option and actually
> not even the preferred one. However, 10-15 years ago there wasn�t
> any turn-key solution around for the requirements similar to ours.
> As a consequence, we�ve been (successfully) engineering our
> database platforms with the building blocks that were available at
> the time and developing automation to glue everything together.
>
> I�d be grateful if it�d be possible for you to answer the
> following questions:
>
> -Are OpenZFS and DxFS fully integrated into the Linux Kernel?
>
> -Have you seen many Oracle installations running on OpenZFS_at_Linux
> apart from Delphix?
>
> -How do Oracle databases at Delphix access the database files �
> via NFS or are the file systems locally mounted?
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Nenad
>
> Twitter: _at_NenadNoveljic
>
> Home page: http://nenadnoveljic.com/
>
> P.S. I�m also aware that you have an All Star engineering team at
> Delphix � Matt Ahrens is not the only ex Solaris engineer there J.
>
> *From:*Tim Gorman [mailto:tim.evdbt_at_gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Dienstag, 5. September 2017 17:39
> *To:* Noveljic Nenad
> *Cc:* ORACLE-L
> *Subject:* Re: AW: Copy-on-write file systems
>
> Nenad,
>
> Thanks for the clarification!
>
> There is more to ZFS than the version supported by Oracle on
> Solaris, as evidenced HERE
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZFS#List_of_operating_systems_supporting_ZFS>.�
> There is likely cause for concern due to the layoffs last week,
> but only for Oracle ZFS products.� Please be aware that, alongside
> Oracle ZFS, there is OpenZFS
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenZFS> for Linux, Mac, FreeBSD,
> and OpenSolaris platforms, and OpenZFS on Linux will survive
> whatever direction Oracle chooses for its proprietary version.
>
> The other thing to keep in mind is that ZFS is a building block
> toward solutions, just as Oracle database is a building block
> toward solutions.� For example, nobody builds a custom ERP
> application in-house anymore, and likewise the same is true with
> what you're discussing.� The use-case you are considering (i.e.
> dev/test agility) is the primary use-case for which Delphix is
> designed.� Delphix is based upon OpenZFS and one of the original
> inventors of ZFS (Matt Ahrens) is a principal and founding member
> of our engineering team.� Over the past 7 years, he and this team
> have significantly enhanced DxFS (based on OpenZFS).
>
> Full disclosure:� I work for Delphix and my job is to
> install/deploy for customers; please consider my responses with
> that in mind.
>
> Please let me know if you want more information?
>
> Thanks!
>
> -Tim
>
>
>
> On 9/3/17 16:15, Noveljic Nenad wrote:
>
> Tim,
>
> I'm apologising for not being precise enough.
>
> The main requirements are related to agility:
>
> 1. Fast fallback and rollback in the case of upgrades and tests.
>
> 2. Fast provisioning of test and development databases based
> on a source database.
>
> Both requirements have been achieved by the means of ZFS
> snapshot, rollback and clone commands.
>
> Furthermore, ZFS has significantly simplified capacity
> management. What I mean by that is Unix admins provision the
> space in the pools (zpools), and the space is being allocated
> to individual ZFSs as the databases are growing. This makes
> the DBA life easier if there are 20-30 databases in a Solaris
> container, as it is much cheaper to always keep some spare
> capacity in the pool to account for an unexpected growth than
> to micromanage individual databases.
>
> On the other hand, the main disadvantage has been so far that
> sometimes the quality of new releases left something to be
> desired for. As a consequence, we've been occasionally
> spending more time for troubleshooting and performance tuning
> than we had budgeted for. These are the examples of the
> problems we've been encountering over the past years:
>
> http://nenadnoveljic.com/blog/arc-resizing-user_reserve_hint_pct/
>
> http://nenadnoveljic.com/blog/solaris-11-3-hang-kernel-object-manager/
>
> I've been using ZFS since it was released in Solaris 10. In my
> opinion, its benefits far outweigh its disadvantages. The
> reason I'm thinking about alternatives are the recent layouts
> of Solaris engineers by the Oracle Corporation.
>
> Finally, let me mention that I'm willing to accept some
> penalty in performance which is inherent to copy-on-write file
> systems (see Bart Sjerps' blog post
> https://bartsjerps.wordpress.com/2013/02/26/zfs-ora-database-fragmentation/
> ) in exchange for the features which would help fulfilling the
> aforementioned agility requirements.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Nenad
>
>
>
> Gesendet �ber BlackBerry Work
> (www.blackberry.com <http://www.blackberry.com>)
>
> *Von: *Noveljic Nenad <nenad.noveljic_at_vontobel.ch
> <mailto:nenad.noveljic_at_vontobel.ch>>
>
> *Datum *Montag, 04. Sep. 2017, 12:14 AM
>
> *An: *gogala.mladen_at_gmail.com <mailto:gogala.mladen_at_gmail.com>
> <gogala.mladen_at_gmail.com <mailto:gogala.mladen_at_gmail.com>>,
> oracle-l_at_freelists.org <mailto:oracle-l_at_freelists.org>
> <oracle-l_at_freelists.org <mailto:oracle-l_at_freelists.org>>
>
> *Betreff: *AW: Copy-on-write file systems
>
> Hi Mladen,
>
> Thank you for your feedback!
>
> ACFS seems to be a viable alternative to ZFS then.
>
> I'm surprised to hear about good benchmark results of ZFS
> on Linux. I thought that ZFS has not been integrated into
> the Linux Kernel, i.e. that the ZFS processes are running
> in the user space.
>
> As already mentioned, I've been successfully using ZFS
> from its very beginning, but I've got the impression that
> its future is uncertain.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Nenad
>
>
> Gesendet �ber BlackBerry Work
> (www.blackberry.com <http://www.blackberry.com>)
>
> *Von: *Mladen Gogala <gogala.mladen_at_gmail.com
> <mailto:gogala.mladen_at_gmail.com>>
>
> *Datum *Sonntag, 03. Sep. 2017, 11:54 PM
>
> *An: *oracle-l_at_freelists.org <mailto:oracle-l_at_freelists.org>
> <oracle-l_at_freelists.org <mailto:oracle-l_at_freelists.org>>
>
> *Betreff: *Re: Copy-on-write file systems
>
> Not being able to afford a T5 super-cluster, I am playing with
> ZFS on Linux. It is surprisingly good, no complaints at all.
> Here are two pages about ZFS beating Ext4 on benchmark:
>
> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=ubuntu-xenial-zfs&num=1
> https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/software/general-linux-open-source/35594-zfs-vs-ext4-zfs-wins
>
> ZFS is a very decent file system.
>
> On 09/03/2017 02:47 PM, Tim Gorman wrote:
>
> Nenad,
>
> It is helpful to share those requirements, as it is not
> useful to make recommendations without them?
>
> What is it that you're trying to accomplish?� What did ZFS
> do right, and at what did it fail?
>
> Thanks!
>
> -Tim
>
>
>
> On 9/3/17 04:16, Noveljic Nenad wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Is anybody running databases on ACFS or some other
> copy-on-write file system?
>
> I'd be greatful if you could share your experiences.
>
> I'm looking for alternatives to ZFS, which has had
> fulfilled most of our requirements so far.
>
> Many thanks in advance,
>
> Nenad
>
>
> Gesendet �ber BlackBerry Work
> (www.blackberry.com <http://www.blackberry.com>)
>
> ____________________________________________________
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this
> e-mail.
>
> Bitte denken Sie an die Umwelt, bevor Sie dieses
> E-Mail drucken.
>
>
> Important Notice
>
> This message is intended only for the individual
> named. It may contain confidential or privileged
> information. If you are not the named addressee you
> should in particular not disseminate, distribute,
> modify or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender
> immediately by e-mail, if you have received this
> message by mistake and delete it from your system.
>
> E-mail transmission may not be secure or error-free as
> information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost,
> destroyed, arrive late or incomplete. Also processing
> of incoming e-mails cannot be guaranteed. All
> liability of the Vontobel Group and its affiliates for
> any damages resulting from e-mail use is excluded. You
> are advised that urgent and time sensitive messages
> should not be sent by e-mail and if verification is
> required please request a printed version.
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Mladen Gogala
>
> Oracle DBA
>
> Tel: (347) 321-1217
>
>
> Important Notice
>
> This message is intended only for the individual named. It may
> contain confidential or privileged information. If you are not
> the named addressee you should in particular not disseminate,
> distribute, modify or copy this e-mail. Please notify the
> sender immediately by e-mail, if you have received this
> message by mistake and delete it from your system.
>
> E-mail transmission may not be secure or error-free as
> information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed,
> arrive late or incomplete. Also processing of incoming e-mails
> cannot be guaranteed. All liability of the Vontobel Group and
> its affiliates for any damages resulting from e-mail use is
> excluded. You are advised that urgent and time sensitive
> messages should not be sent by e-mail and if verification is
> required please request a printed version.
>
>
> Important Notice
>
> This message is intended only for the individual named. It may
> contain confidential or privileged information. If you are not
> the named addressee you should in particular not disseminate,
> distribute, modify or copy this e-mail. Please notify the
> sender immediately by e-mail, if you have received this
> message by mistake and delete it from your system.
>
> E-mail transmission may not be secure or error-free as
> information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed,
> arrive late or incomplete. Also processing of incoming e-mails
> cannot be guaranteed. All liability of the Vontobel Group and
> its affiliates for any damages resulting from e-mail use is
> excluded. You are advised that urgent and time sensitive
> messages should not be sent by e-mail and if verification is
> required please request a printed version.
>
>
> Important Notice
>
> This message is intended only for the individual named. It may
> contain confidential or privileged information. If you are not the
> named addressee you should in particular not disseminate,
> distribute, modify or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender
> immediately by e-mail, if you have received this message by
> mistake and delete it from your system.
>
> E-mail transmission may not be secure or error-free as information
> could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or
> incomplete. Also processing of incoming e-mails cannot be
> guaranteed. All liability of the Vontobel Group and its affiliates
> for any damages resulting from e-mail use is excluded. You are
> advised that urgent and time sensitive messages should not be sent
> by e-mail and if verification is required please request a printed
> version.
>
>
> Important Notice
>
> This message is intended only for the individual named. It may contain
> confidential or privileged information. If you are not the named
> addressee you should in particular not disseminate, distribute, modify
> or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail,
> if you have received this message by mistake and delete it from your
> system.
>
> E-mail transmission may not be secure or error-free as information
> could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or
> incomplete. Also processing of incoming e-mails cannot be guaranteed.
> All liability of the Vontobel Group and its affiliates for any damages
> resulting from e-mail use is excluded. You are advised that urgent and
> time sensitive messages should not be sent by e-mail and if
> verification is required please request a printed version.
>

--
http://www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l