Re: Empty Names
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 17:25:29 GMT
Message-ID: <diURg.38901$9u.333796_at_ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca>
Marshall wrote:
> Bob Badour wrote:
>
>>Marshall wrote: >> >>>Bob Badour wrote: >>> >>>>If an attribute has no name, how are we to refer to it? >>> >>>Do you know the term a "small matter of engineering?" Well, >>>this is a "small matter of syntax." :-) >>> >>>I can think of a few approaches. >>> >>>The first and most comprehensive would be a quoting >>>mechanism for identifiers, such as Haskell uses. This would >>>allow one to, for example, have identifier names with spaces, >>>or empty identifiers, or other otherwise-hard-to-parse >>>identifiers. This would also insulate one from differences >>>in legal identifiers as one crossed language boundaries. >> >>A name is a name. I don't see how what I said precludes using >>spaces in names.
>
> I didn't think it did. However spaces in names are another thing that,
> like empty names, are typically hard to parse. I can see some
> modest value to allowing names to be arbitrary strings; this is
> possible with an identifier quoting facility.
Um, so you weren't responding to anything I said but were introducing a whole new topic unrelated to how to refer to something with no name.
Might I suggest that explicit identification of tangents and diversions helps with communication? Nothing fancy, just a few words. "On a related topic..." or "On a separate note..." etc.
>>>Another approach would be the use of syntactic rules >>>that would allow one to simply omit the name. For >>>example, if name declaration was always of the >>>form "name:type" then the colon could be used as >>>the definitive indication of a declaration, and the name >>>could simply be optional. >> >>But that doesn't solve the problem of how to refer to the thing with no >>name.
>
> Agreed; this only addresses declaring them. My point 1 however,
> which I said was the "most comprehensive" addresses all
> usages of empty identifiers. Points 2 and 3 show how, in
> limited situations, it might be simpler still.
But a name comprising a zero-length string is still a name--albeit, a name with some usability challenges. How do we refer to an attribute that doesn't have one of those?
>>>Still another shortcut would be the ability to omit the >>>name when referring to relations with an unnamed >>>attribute: >>> >>>update Table 5 where id = 11; -- sets the unnamed attribute >> >>Sets what unnamed attribute to what value?
>
> *The* unnamed attribute. As Connor MacLeod says, "there
> can be only one." And in the above example, the value is
> 5. The above is a shorthand for the longer:
>
> update Table set ``=5 where id = 11;
Are you sure you want to set it to five? What if you want to increase it by five? Is `` not a name? How do we refer to an attribute that doesn't have one of those?
>>If we can have one unnamed >>attribute, why not two?
>
> Well, is there a useful distinction between not having a name,
> and having an empty name? I suspect not.
Logical differences are big differences. Even if one has a difficult to use name, one has a name.
In that case, the
> empty string is just another string that can be used as an
> identifier; it doesn't given one a pass to ignore the usual
> rules such as names being required to be unique.
Sure, a zero-length string can be a name and only one attribute can have that name. But how do we refer to an attribute that doesn't have one of those?
> If there is a useful distinction to be made between the
> empty name and no name, I don't know what it would be,
> but it is likely that much of what I'm saying wouldn't apply.
Is there a difference between an object that has a location in our universe and one that doesn't? Does a difference exist between something that's difficult to use and something that's absurd on its face? Is there a difference between "What is a name?" and "What's in a name?" ?
>>>Just some ideas. Whether these are good ideas or >>>not depends on the entirety of the laguage design. >> >>I think you missed my point entirely.
>
> It's entirely possible! And it's possible that I'm talking about
> something completely different than what you et al are
> discussing.
Okay. I thought "If an attribute has no name, how are we to refer to it?" clearly identified what I was talking about. I guess I was wrong. Received on Mon Sep 25 2006 - 19:25:29 CEST