Re: Outrage that OCP exams are now unproctored - Comments?

"Bert Bear" <bertbear_at_NOSPAMbertbear.net> wrote in message news:<%eOQ9.71$5X.68571329_at_newssvr11.news.prodigy.com>...
> Daniel,
>
> You mean something like:
>
>
> ----
>
> To be more serious, apprenticeships have their values as if you value the
> Master who "graduates" the person then you have a GREAT certification.
>
> hmmm, maybe what we start to needs is the: comp.database.oracle
> certification
>
> You need to spend two years in apprenticeship to Daniel or other DBA we know
> is good. If they give you their blessing, you get the certification.

Ohmygawd, this brings up visions of every screwed up apprenticeship system there ever was.

>
> Maybe Oracle needs to start an apprenticeship. Work for Oracle for free (or
> minimum wage or pay Oracle like people pay colleges) for two years. Hey, it
> might make more money for Oracle than the OCP. Maybe I should shutup before
> it happens. ;-)

My wife had to put in 3000 hours at minimum wage or worse to get her state certification, after getting a doctorate. Now her field has gone to hell in a handbasket. She could make half of what I do were she to take a really crappy job. She has a halfway decent job but only makes a third of what I do. She had a job she really loved, until they hired an inexperienced manager over her.

The downside of apprenticeships is they do not evolve well. They are extremely vulnerable to societal and economic changes (and technological for us). When our field gets to the point of it being reasonable to even have such apprenticeships, it will be old and lizardlike. Unless there is some craftsmanship revolution, but that seems highly unlikely.

>
> Bert.
>
>
>
> "DA Morgan" <damorgan_at_exesolutions.com> wrote in message
> news:3E136318.E19B179A_at_exesolutions.com...
> > "Howard J. Rogers" wrote:
> >
> > > But, mentioning no-one specifically in particular, when a self-professed
> > > DBA, claiming two versions' certification, can't even understand the
> > > difference between redo log multiplexing and redo log mirroring and
> > > demonstrates as much in postings to this newsgroup; or can't even read
> the
> > > Oracle documentation properly where the difference (and the preference)
> is
> > > pointed out in words of not very many more than one syllable; well, what
> > > does that tell you about the value of the OCP?
> > >
> > > So much for a "rounded" education.
> > >
> > > Personally, if a person doesn't know how to do a block dump and
> interpret
> > > the results properly, s/he shouldn't call himself/herself a DBA. And if
> > > there's one thing you won't learn on any OCP-based Oracle training
> course,
> > > it's how to do a block dump.

Been such a long time since I've had to do anything like that, I'd have to learn it all over again. I think it is awfully obscure to require of a DBA. But I would say the same thing about assembler language, too.

> > >
> > > HJR
> > >
> > > "Bert Bear" <bertbear_at_NOSPAMbertbear.net> wrote in message
> > > news:PftQ9.6106$Zo5.2795633889_at_newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
> > > > Noons,
> > > >
> > > > At a minimum an OCP shows the person has enough interest in being a
> DBA to
> > > > get a rounded Oracle education.
> > > >
> > > > At this point in time, anyone (e.g. an used car salesman) can say
> hmmm,
> what
> > > > might pay better and start calling himself an Oracle DBA.
> > > >
> > > > When I see an used car salesman who passed these test it shows me,
> that
> this
> > > > used car salesman AT LEAST:
> > > >
> > > > 1) Read the manuals (or paid for an Oracle class or two) .vs. the
> other
> > > > used car salesman who didn't
> > > > 2) Retained enough information to pass the exams
> > > > 3) Show enough interest in being an Oracle to take the time to study
> and
> > > > pass the exams .vs. the other used car salesman who didn't.
> > > >
> > > > IMHO, an OCP is one of many things you must take into consideration
> when
> > > > choosing an employee. It is NOT a golden key to the Oracle DBA
> washroom.
> > > >
> > > > I can only speak from personal experience. After working with Oracle
> > > > products (DBA, OAS, Applications, etc.) for 5 years, I found getting
> the
> OCP
> > > > helped me round out my knowledge of the Oracle database. Studying for
> it
> > > > helped me cover areas my management never needed me to cover. As one
> person
> > > > said (in another thread), management normally upgrades for support
> (not
> the
> > > > new features, which they might never use). He went on to say many
> software
> > > > products still only use Oracle 7 features and nothing more. By having
> an
> > > > OCP, I know the person has at least an interest beyond saying "I have
> an
> > > > interest." He should also have a general, detailed understanding of
> the
> > > > Oracle database.
> > > >
> > > > Bertram Moshier
> > > > Oracle Certified Professional 8i and 9i DBA
> > > >
> > > > http://www.bmoshier.net/bertram
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Noons" <nsouto_at_optusnet.com.au.nospam> wrote in message
> > > > news:Xns92F623B3C3393mineminemine_at_210.49.20.254...
> > > > > danielroy10_at_hotmail.com (Daniel Roy) wrote in
> > > > > news:1b061893.0212300844.1d469f8e_at_posting.google.com and I quote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > non-certified DBAs who knew well their stuff. But trust me, if you
> saw
> > > > > > some of the DBAs I worked with (and had to rely on since they had
> the
> > > > > > DBA title besides their name and the system password, and I
> didn't),
> > > > > > you would agree with me.
> > > > >
> > > > > That is a very good point. Unfortunately, I don't think
> > > > > the OCP in its current form is gonna change that one bit.
> > > > > It's an attitude problem, not a qualification problem.
> > > > > It shows itself as a lack of qualifications, sure.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Cheers
> > > > > Nuno Souto
> > > > > nsouto_at_optusnet.com.au.nospam
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > It is worse than you think Howard.
> >
> > Last year I inteviewed someone that is an employee of the City of Seattle.
> This
> > person had been an Oracle DBA for three years. They failed the following
> > question:
> >
> > Write a SQL statement with an inner join on the whiteboard and then
> convert
> > inner join to a left outer join.
> >
> > They couldn't even write the inner join.

That may be sad, or it may mean _they use different semantics to describe the same thing_!

> >
> > Did they get the job transfer within the city they wanted? No. Well until
> 3
> > months later when they tried again and were interviewed by other city
> employees.
> >
> > Daniel Morgan
> >

jg

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