Re: Should I study Oracle 8i/9i or 9i directly/

"Richard Foote" <Richard.Foote_at_oracle.com> wrote in message news:3D58A351.B74DD4D0_at_oracle.com...
> Hi Howard,
>
> I think we are arguing a little at cross purposes.

You mean we disagree? ;-)

> You seem to be highlighting some notable deficiencies with the Oracle
> Education DBA curriculum, most of which I thoroughly agree with.

Recall that our original poster was enquiring about training. Not with Oracle, perhaps, but attending some training course somewhere. Assuming that Oracle University does the best Oracle training around, and that others just tag along behind, I don't think it's possible to argue this point in a vaccuum: the quality of the Oracle curriculum material is fundamentally germane to the discussion. And for an 8i user (the majority of users), being thrown the 9i curriculum as currently written is a disaster. Which is, as I say, why the 8i curriculum has been resurrected.

>I've
> always positioned the New features course as an "Advanced DBA" course,

Likewise.... except....

> as it usually covers much material not generally included in the
> standard courses. I also believe those who have complete the standard
> courses should be able to attend the New features courses at some
> reduced rate and I've always thought it would be nice if the stuff not
> covered in the standard courses where separated such that duplication of
> material could be avoided.

...except that that doesn't happen, and so you can't honestly say it's an advanced DBA *as written*. Newly OCP-qualified DBAs have to sit through, as you say, swathes of duplication, and skimming on the really tricky stuff.

>Say day 3,4 and 5 only covers stuff not in
> the standard courses.
>

Absolutely agree with that as an idea. But agreeing with you isn't as much fun...

> However I still stick to my argument that a comprehensive understanding
> in 9i inherently means a good understanding of 8i. Note that DMT,
> PCTUSED, Freelists, Rollback segments etc. etc. are all part of 9i.

Now you're talking in the abstract again. They are *not* parts of the 9i Oracle University curriculum. Well, not properly, anyway. DMTs get 1 page (page 12 in Chapter 8) with two lines of explanatory text. Their example doesn't even include the MINIMUM EXTENT clause! Straight after that, it's into creating UNDO tablespaces. Rollback segments get an *appendix* to themselves.

And what of RMAN backup and recovery? The 9i material doesn't appear (after an admittedly quick glance) to mention creating scripts at all. The thrust is definitely not to have a catalog database, and all of their examples show backup commands being issued in an ad hoc way, using the stored configuration parameters in the control file. It is no basis for performing RMAN backups using 8i.

I could go on (Names Server, for example).

Yes, these things are in 9i, but either they've changed so much as to be unrecognisable (RMAN, for example), or they are taught with such a 9i slant, and with so much skimping on the 8i specifics, that the *course material* is not sufficient for an understanding of 8i.

Back to our original poster: he wants to attend training. The Oracle training material practically dictates an 8i-followed-by-9i New Features approach.

> Maybe they're not the in thing, but a good understanding of 9i means
> knowing these things as well (until the new stuff works properly :).
>
> There is very little you can do in 8i, very little that you should be
> doing in 8i that you shouldn't be doing in 9i. The fact that Oracle
> itself has problems with it's curriculum doesn't mean other training
> organisation have the same problems and doesn't mean one shouldn't be
> focused in the current stuff (and thereby implicitly learning stuff
> relevant to previous releases as well).

You're assuming that you 'implicitly learn' 8i material by doing 9i. You don't, not with our current material. You learn things which will completely mislead you in 8i (such as 'don't index foreign key columns because they're not needed any more' [paraphrasing wildly]). And you don't learn things which underpin the new stuff (automatic undo is just automated rollback segments, but where does the curriculum now explain how rollback segments work? That understanding is still needed, but now the curriculum basically just says 'throw some disk space at the problem and let Oracle sort it out'. Not a great way to prepare yourself for learning how to administer 8i databases).

>
> I agree that 8i will be around for a while, but if you're trained
> *properly in 9i* (and I guess that's the issue, you're suggesting that
> may not be so easy),

8.0 and 8i were fundamentally not very different from Oracle 7. In all three versions, you had to understand the mechanics to get anywhere, and you had to have a feel for the architecture. 9i is a big change from that... it's self-tuning this, and automated-that: the SQL Server paradigm. It's impossible to learn 9i, based on the curriculum as currently written, and understand 8i properly.

And yes, I'm making an assumption that if Oracle's material is written like that, most everyone else's will be too.

All I know is that after 5 days of DBA1 these days, I'm ready to drop: because I've taught two largely separate DBA courses in the time allowed for 1 (and the Melbourne guys feel the same way). I have to: 80% of my audience isn't even interested in the 9i stuff, so I have to back fill with my own material to flesh out the 8i-specific stuff. Thank God the powers that be have re-instated the 8i courses, because it was unworkable otherwise. And they wouldn't have done that without reason.

If ALL you ever want to administer is a 9i (or higher!) database, then the Oracle curriculum isn't that bad. You'll be taught to rely on the automated-everything approach, and that's clearly the way of the future.

But if you want to understand how to run what will soon be "legacy" databases, then it really isn't a good option on its own.

>you should also be inherently trained in 8i. If you
> don't learn RAC, Workspace Management, etc. learning 9i, you're sure as
> hell aren't going to learn it learning 8i.

No, you won't, but that's why I've said (repeatedly!) do the 8i stuff, *and then attend the 9i New Features course*.

You must have just forgotten that bit, huh?

:-)

Regards
HJR
>
> Cheers
>
> Richard
>
> "Howard J. Rogers" wrote:
> >
> > "Richard Foote" <Richard.Foote_at_oracle.com> wrote in message
> > news:3D57A457.4AC42446_at_oracle.com...
> > > Hi Howard,
> > >
> > > I meant learning 9i, not just the 9i only features. I don't think
Terry
> > > was suggesting just learning new features introduced in 9i but whether
> > > he should be 8i "literate" before becoming 9i literate.
> >
> > And where in the 9i DBA curriculum (and the guy is talking attending
> > training somewhere) will he learn Workspace Management or Advanced
> > Replication or RACs?
> >
> > >
> > > If I was to put it into Oracle University/Education terms (which I
> > > wasn't, I took the training to be a generic term) this would mean
doing
> > > the 9i DBA course, the 9i Backup Recovery/Networking course, the 9i
> > > Performance Tuning Course then perhaps to fill in the gaps, the 9i NF
> > > course. It's somewhat redundant to start learning 8i at this stage if
> > > you have a choice. Once you learn 9i, you implicitly learn 8i or the
> > > bits in 8i worth learning. Learning 9i means knowing LMT, knowing MVs,
> > > etc.
> > >
> >
> > Oh well, we're allowed to disagree. The 9i Networking course is (I think
the
> > phrase I want is...) a crock (ie, 4 measly chapters at the beginning of
> > (naturally!) the Backup and Recovery material). No mention of Names
Server
> > (which is still supplied and works with 9i, whatever its future might
be).
> > Lots and lots of mentions of something called Oracle Internet
Directory -and
> > not an explanation or tutorial in sight. Learning RMAN in 9i stands you
in
> > no good stead for learning how to script it in 8i, where such things as
> > stored configuration settings don't even exist. The 9i treatment of
export
> > and import is poor compared to the 8i material. What's a rollback
segment?
> > Er, well you won't actually find out unless your instructor feels like
> > dipping into Appendix A of the 9i DBA I course material, and then you'll
> > find the old chapter 10 lifted straight out of the Oracle 8i material.
> > Otherwise, if he's having an off day, all you'll learn is automatic
undo.
> >
> > And I was never comfortable that the only 8i course that mentioned
> > partitioning (as an example) was the New Features one... why anyone who
has
> > sat through the core 8i DBA material should then have to attend a 'New
> > Features' course to learn the missing bits, I couldn't say. The same
applies
> > to 9i: the core stuff won't teach you about AR or WM or RAC, but the 9i
NF
> > course will (to mention just three).
> >
> > > I believe if you are 9i "literate" and you have an 8i database put in
> > > front of you, you'll get by (just as someone who knows 8i would
survive
> > > looking after an Oracle7 database).
> >
> > We'll agree to disagree again! The 8i-to-7 therefore 9i-to-8i analogy
> > doesn't work. If you know 8i, you will know about dictionary managed
> > tablespace, rollback segments, PCTFREE and PCTUSED, all of which are
alive
> > and well in version 7. If you only know 9i, it is not impossible that
you
> > will think the world only contains locally managed tablespace, automatic
> > undo and Automatic Segment Space Management -and will therefore have a
> > rather rude shock awaiting you when you meet your first 8i database.
> >
> > Don't forget that 8i is still a supported version, and remains so for
quite
> > some time. And for quite some time after *that*, most of the world will
> > still be running 8i whatever "i" Oracle itself might be pushing by then.
As
> > a basis for working confidently and competently with all Oracle
> > installations, 9i training by itself is no way to go.
> >
> > This is,of course, the same theory that got us to abandon all 8i
training
> > earlier this year to "encourage" people to switch to 9i -which I always
> > thought was the height of lunacy, not to mention arrogance. "Oh, they're
> > basically the same systems" I was told (mentioning no names, but the
word
> > "Brisbane" springs to mind). Funny then that we've now just re-instated
the
> > 8i curriculum, because so many 7, 8.0 and 8i users were fed up with
learning
> > stuff that is wildly different to what they can actually use.
> >
> > Until nearly everyone uses LMTs, automatic undo, auto-tuned PGA, the
> > one-line 'backup database;' RMAN command, and so on, 9i training on its
own
> > is no preparation for the real world.
> >
> > Regards
> > HJR
> >
> > >I don't believe the same would
> > > necessarily be the case the other way around and so my suggestion to
> > > 'read' the 9i Concepts manual in preference to the 8i and then read
> > > through the 9i one as well.
> > >
> > > Then again, I could be wrong. Either way, it's get boring agreeing
with
> > > you all the time, this is more like it ;)
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > Richard
> > >
> > > "Howard J. Rogers" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Personally, I would recommend the 8i->9i route.
> > > >
> > > > There's a hell of a lot of new features in 9i, and many of them
develop,
> > or
> > > > expand on, stuff that was introduced in 8i. Cut out 8i, and a lot of
9i
> > is
> > > > going to seem a bit mysterious. (For example: "Locally Managed
> > Tablespaces
> > > > are now the default". Great... but what's a locally managed
> > tablespace??!
> > > > "Materialized Views now Fast Refresh more readily than in 8i".
Lovely...
> > but
> > > > what's a Materialised View, and what's Fast Refresh when it's at
home?
> > > >
> > > > I can't speak for what other training organisations do (and I don't
> > speak
> > > > for Oracle, either), but the official Oracle 9i New Features course
> > > > *assumes* familiarity with 8i new features.
> > > >
> > > > As was discussed here some weeks ago, too: going from 8i to 9i means
> > that
> > > > you are required to know about things like Advanced Replication and
> > > > Workspace Management. Doing 9i direct would not require that level
of
> > > > knowledge. If you want an easy time of it, therefore, direct 9i is
the
> > way
> > > > to go. But if you actually want to know, understand and use the
product
> > > > competently, the 8i -> 9i upgrade route is more thorough, and
ultimately
> > > > more productive.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > > HJR
> > > >
> > > > "Terry H" <LYYLAM_at_hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:196e2f63.0208112207.70bccfbf_at_posting.google.com...
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > Please give me some advice.
> > > > >
> > > > > Should I study 8i -> 9i or study 9i directly?
> > > > > Do you know any good Oracle training school in South bay of
> > California
> > > > > (alameda county or Santa Clare county)?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks.
> > > > >
> > > > > Terry H.
Received on Tue Aug 13 2002 - 03:26:35 CDT