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Home -> Community -> Mailing Lists -> Oracle-L -> RE: Cary's book
DBAs, for the past three or four years, have been on top of the food chain
when it comes to rates. I'm a bit of an exception to the DBA world, having
been a DBA for 15 years, a developer for 13 years, a system
manager/administrator for 9 years and a team lead/tech lead for 10 years, I
can pretty well go where the rates are highest. Right now, the DBA rates
are coming down and are below the PM rates and the architecture rates. But,
as a whole, rates were artificially high due to the internet bubble, which
inflated most technical rates by about a third, and more than that for web
specialists. When the internet bubble burst, rates *SHOULD HAVE* returned
to their pre-internet-bubble level. But, generally speaking, rates have
crashed to the point where there is no logical determination of how much a
person is worth to a company overall. The same person can go to three
different companies and hear that they are worth $40/hr, $60/hr, or $75/hr.
That person, of course, is best off with the company which thinks s/he is
worth the most. I think the reason for this "crash" is two-fold. The first
is that rates were so high that when they started coming down, companies
thought they had the upperhand... "well, I *was* paying $150 and he's
willing to settle for $125, I wonder if I can get him to take $100, why yes,
how about $75?" When people started balking and left, the new hiring
manager was putting out word that he was willing to pay $75/hr. Some pimp
came in and took that $75 and found someone to sell to the client for
$45-50/hr and put the rest in hir pocket. So, now, the going rate is $45-50
for a job which, last year, was $150. The job hasn't changed, only what
people are willing to take. So, the logical conclusion is that when rates
are below what the majority of people can make due with, the rates have to
come up, provided, of course, that the economy recovers someday and there is
fuller employment. BUT WAIT! Now, $45/hr may not be a lot to a person
making $150 last year, BUT there are people in Thailand and Bangladesh and
Somalia that would be quite happy with $45/hr thank-you-very-much. So, why
not send the job overseas for $45 and have some pimp find someone willing to
do it for $25-30/hr and pocket the rest? Now rates are nice and high in
Somalia and China, compared to the rates everyone else gets, and those
people are happy, and there are a lot more of them than there are of us.
SO. One of two situations will eventually come and even everything out.
EITHER We will reach a level of global equilibrium where wage arbitrage will become moot
OR
We will reach a point where management realizes that it is better to have staff here than elsewhere and is willing to pay a premium for it.
If the first situation is the case, as I think it will be to some extent, the people in the richer countries of the world will see real wages decline dramatically for the next 20 years or so, whereas wages in lower wage parts of the world will begin climbing, dependent on the greed of the intermediaries. If the second is the case, someone somewhere will have to come up with something real on which to base wages. A person with X experience and Y certification is worth XX, whereas, a person with Y experience without a degree or certification is worth YY. Because, let's face it, the massive differential in rates between consultants and fulltimers doesn't make a lot of sense, but the rate differential between client1 and client2 makes even less.
Bambi.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 2:30 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
I have often wondered if the problems between DBAs and management stem from mutual disrespect.
The manager feels awkward in being forced to hire an expert in an area he/she knows nothing about. Tries to make suggestions in order to flush out whether this "expert" really knows anything.
The DBA feels like people that have no concept of databases are making dumb suggestions or even orders. Feels his/her expertise is being questioned by an idiot.
You can see how this can easily spiral into mutual disrespect. And since a veteran DBA has experienced this situation before, it is easy to fall into a familiar behavior pattern.
And an experienced manager who has been forced to deal with DBAs before starts the relationship braced for the expected sharp looks and sharper comments.
A few years ago being an experienced DBA was a valuable commodity and we really enjoyed that. But the managers were very frustrated by having to search hard for a DBA, pay spiraling salary demands, etc. I think some managers look on these times as their revenge. What some DBAs see as pay cuts the managers see as a return to sanity.
Can anyone relate to this scenario?
Dennis Williams
DBA, 80%OCP, 100% DBA
Lifetouch, Inc.
dwilliams_at_lifetouch.com
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 12:44 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Let me clarify things further. In Cary's book, there is a part when
he describes a meeting when a manager was saying things that were
plain stupid and nobody would correct or interject his monologues.
He further ruminates over that not being a proper way to handle a
performance problem.
Well, there are several things that are slightly out of touch with
reality here. If you have a mean SOB of a boss, the first rule is
that he's always right. The second rule is that in case of a doubt,
the 1st rule applies. One does not correct people like that if he
works for them. Cary, you and me are not in the same position. You
are a big name consultant who also owns and manages a medium sized
consulting company. You are a big name outsider who companies trust
much more then their own employees and I am just a DBA, an expendable
commodity which can be replaced by single call to recruiter. Wood work
is not yet within my reach, my hobby is carrying 7x24 beeper.
Finally, let me reiterate, the book is excellent, I enjoy reading it
very much. As you can see, I did follow your advice and I did speak up.
I'll reap my rewards in heaven or, hopefully, a hotsos clinic.
On Fri, 2003-10-03 at 12:59, Bellow, Bambi wrote:
> This is a difficult question that I've had to face more than I would
> have liked in the past 2 years. The way to do it is to mark your
> prices down and say that comparing bang for the buck, you've got a
> bigger bang... and maybe they can squeeze out a better buck... and
> maybe they can't... but at least you can compete with people with
> little or no experience... OH, and all those phone calls you get from
> recruiters... return them all... every last one of them... and make
> friends with them... tell them you're an expensive commodity, but if
> they hear of anything you're always interested in looking around...
> because it is much better to leave on your own terms and go job to job
> than to let the market forces do their bit and be sitting between jobs
> for weeks and months, then settling for money you'd prefer not to
> settle for...
>
> HTH,
> Bambi.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: April Wells [mailto:awells_at_csedge.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 11:40 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> Subject: RE: Cary's book
>
>
>
> That only works up to the point where they are willing to
> pay. It's sad, but you can STILL get a job with the OCP
> letters after your name, regardless of what you can or can't
> do. The idea is that they are paying you bottom line because
> you have no experience... but being able to pass a test means
> that you are trainable.
>
> If you can't get through the screeners that say... oh, you
> have X amount of qualifications... that prices you out of our
> range in these hard times, how can you market? Honestly, this
> is more than just rhetoric... HOW can you market yourself when
> you look bad to the bottom line?
>
> April Wells
> Oracle DBA/Oracle Apps DBA
> Corporate Systems
> Amarillo Texas
> /\
> / \
> / \
> \ /
> \/
> >\<
> \
> >\<
> \
> Few people really enjoy the simple pleasure of flying a kite
> Adam Wells age 11
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gudmundur Josepsson [mailto:gbj_at_index.is]
> Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 11:14 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> Subject: Re: Cary's book
>
>
> Mladen,
>
> > Hard times present problems because people do
> > not want to pay for a competent DBA but frequently hire a
> shaman or a
> > witch doctor who "improves" on the system based on snake oil
> type
> > techniques. If I cannot get more money then some bozo after
> a
>
> If you know you're better than the bozo and that you can give
> people more
> value for their money then I think this is a marketing problem
> more than
> anything else. It's up to you to prove to the buyer (or your
> boss) that you
> can do the work better. Quantify your expected results.
> Chapter 4 has an
> excellent discussion on this.
>
> Gudmundur
>
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> --
> Author: Gudmundur Josepsson
> INET: gbj_at_index.is
>
> Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051
> http://www.fatcity.com
> San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting
> services
>
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-- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Mladen Gogala INET: mladen_at_wangtrading.com Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services --------------------------------------------------------------------- To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: DWILLIAMS_at_LIFETOUCH.COM Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services --------------------------------------------------------------------- To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Bellow, Bambi INET: bbellow_at_chi.navtech.com Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services --------------------------------------------------------------------- To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).Received on Fri Oct 03 2003 - 15:04:27 CDT
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