Re: RMAN & SQL Backtrack

From: AK <oramagic_at_hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:28:37 -0700
Message-Id: <25937.338097@fatcity.com>

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Messagewhy not backup to disk and then transfer to tape .

-ak

Original Message -----=20 From: Arup Nanda=20 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:24 AM Subject: Re: RMAN & SQL Backtrack

Wow! Heady!!

It's mighty nice of you to include my name in this illustrious list, = Mladen; but I don't consider myself to be in the same league :) Better = yet, count yourself in there.

Talking about the business at hand - you are absolutely right; one of = the "myths" (of the several) is that RMAN is free. It is, as long as you = don't put it on tape. Once you bring tape to the picture, you are = talking money, sometimes big money (as in Tivoli), sometimes small (as = in BrightStor). However, the solution to usedisk could still be relevant = and applicable in some cases, especially in small companies.=20

Besides the Freeman book, I would also suggest another one - Oracle = RMAN Pocket Reference by Darl Kuhn and Scott Schulze, ISBN = 0-596-00233-5. It predates the Freeman book and I learned my ropes from = it. It's a pocket reference; but it's truly one of those things where = size belies the content.

Learning curve could be formidable. Remember you need to learn a new = "language", and it is arcane. When youventure into territories of tuning = the tape buffers, etc, the process could be quite involved. I just = finished setting up and tuning a RMAN setup for a 2 TB database using = IBM Tivoli Storage Manager agent and the details of the process using = the IBM Red Books was nightmarish!

Regards,

Arup Nanda

Original Message -----=20 From: Gogala, Mladen=20 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 11:39 AM Subject: RE: RMAN & SQL Backtrack

I don't have any experience with SQL*Backtrack and I do have some = experience

with RMAN. Here are my comments:

RMAN is reliable. Once you write the backup scripts, they are = executed by operations and there no surprises. In order to rely on those scripts, one = needs to test them, especially the recovery part.
RMAN needs a 3rd party backup software to run. Things like = OmniBackup, Tivoli, Legato or SyncSort can be rather expensive. RMAN doesn't write to tapes = itself. RMAN delegates a backup software contacted through the routines from libobk.so = (or libobk.dll or libobk.sl) to do its writing. To get the "libobk.so" from you backup software = vendor of choice, you generally=20 have to write a check. That means that RMAN is NOT free.
Before version 9, RMAN was arcane and hard to learn. Thanks to = Robert Freeman, it is no=20 longer so. You can learn how to configure and use RMAN and you = can find a decent book to learn RMAN from. It's not very hard and it's fairly logical. = One reading of the books suffices=20 for a good general understanding.
Quality of the software: RMAN leaves a lot to be desired. Its = biggest drawback is the fact that it doesn't do any coordination with the underlying backup = catalog. In other words, you can happily declare backup obsolete in RMAN and Legato will not know = anything about it and vice versa. You can even delete backup in Legato and reuse the tape while = RMAN knows nothing about it. On the other hand, RMAN, in contrast to all other methods, does = not put tablespaces into the backup mode, thus generating floods of redo archives. RMAN = doesn't backup data blocks that=20 have never been used ("behind the watermark blocks"), which is = great if you have a fresh new datafile which was added to the tablespace just in case = something might run out of space.
Personnel. Despite the certification process, it is not always = easy to find a trained personnel which knows how to use it and how to recover the database. I = consider the ability to recover the database a basis for someone to call himself/herself a DBA. = You would be surprised how many people which claim that title do not know how to recover = the database. Even smaller number=20 knows how to use RMAN.
I would suggest Jared Still, Cary Millsap, Rachel Carmichael, = Jonathan Lewis, Wolfgang Breitling,=20 Steve Adams, Gaja V., Arup Nanda, Kirti Deshpande and Anjo Kolk = to start the Oracle List certification process. I would trust that one more then the OCP. I apologize = to anyone who I might have forgotten.

    Mladen Gogala=20
    Oracle DBA=20
    Phone:(203) 459-6855=20
    Email:mgogala_at_oxhp.com=20

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Smith, Ron L. [mailto:rlsmith_at_kmg.com]
      Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:59 AM
      To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
      Subject: RMAN & SQL Backtrack


      We have been using SQL Backtrack for backup and recovery for about =

6 years now. We are being pressured to start using RMAN because it is = free. Makes sense but I am wondering about reliability, complexity, = learning curve, etc...

Has anyone had experience with both products or anyone new to RMAN = that can give me an idea of what to expect?

Thanks!

      Ron
      If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail message, any =

use, distribution or copying of the message is prohibited. Please let me = know immediately by return e-mail if you have received this message by = mistake, then delete the e-mail message. Thank you.

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>why not backup to disk and then =

transfer to tape=20
.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>-ak</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20

style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">   <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dorarup_at_hotmail.com href=3D"mailto:orarup_at_hotmail.com">Arup = Nanda</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=3DORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com">Multiple recipients of list = ORACLE-L</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, July 16, 2003 = 10:24=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: RMAN & SQL=20   Backtrack</DIV>

  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wow! Heady!!</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It's mighty nice of you to include my =

name in=20
  this illustrious list, Mladen; but I don't consider myself = to be in=20
  the same league :) Better yet, count yourself in = there.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Talking about the business at hand - = you are=20
  absolutely right; one of the "myths" (of the several) is that RMAN is = free. It=20
  is, as long as you don't put it on tape. Once you bring tape to the = picture,=20
  you are talking money, sometimes big money (as in Tivoli), sometimes = small (as=20
  in BrightStor). However, the solution to usedisk could still be = relevant and=20
  applicable in some cases, especially in small companies. </FONT></DIV>   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Besides the Freeman book, I would = also suggest=20
  another one - Oracle RMAN Pocket Reference by Darl Kuhn and Scott = Schulze,=20
  ISBN 0-596-00233-5. It predates the Freeman book and I learned my = ropes from=20
  it. It's a pocket reference; but it's truly one of those things where = size=20
  belies the content.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Learning curve could be formidable. = Remember you=20
  need to learn a new "language", and it is arcane. When youventure into =

  territories of tuning the tape buffers, etc, the process could be = quite=20
  involved. I just finished setting up and tuning a RMAN setup for a 2 = TB=20
  database using IBM Tivoli Storage Manager agent and the details of the = process=20
  using the IBM Red Books was nightmarish!</FONT></DIV>

  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Regards,</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Arup Nanda</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =

BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B>=20

<A title=3DMGogala_at_oxhp.com href=3D"mailto:MGogala_at_oxhp.com">Gogala, = Mladen</A>=20

</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=3DORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com=20

href=3D"mailto:ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com">Multiple recipients of list = ORACLE-L</A>=20

</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, July 16, = 2003 11:39=20

AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: RMAN & SQL=20 Backtrack</DIV>

    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =

class=3D937141214-16072003>I=20

don't have any experience with SQL*Backtrack and I do have some =

experience</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D937141214-16072003>with RMAN. Here are my=20 comments:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D937141214-16072003>a)=20

RMAN is reliable. Once you write the backup scripts, they are = executed by=20

operations</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D937141214-16072003>    and there no = surprises. In order=20

    to rely on those scripts, one needs to test them,=20     especially</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20     class=3D937141214-16072003>    the recovery=20     part.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D937141214-16072003>b)=20

RMAN needs a 3rd party backup software to run. Things like = OmniBackup,=20

Tivoli, Legato or</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D937141214-16072003>    SyncSort can be rather =

expensive. RMAN doesn't write to tapes itself. RMAN delegates=20 a</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D937141214-16072003>    backup software = contacted=20

through the routines from libobk.so (or libobk.dll or libobk.sl)=20 to</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D937141214-16072003>    do its writing. To get = the=20

"libobk.so" from you backup software vendor of choice, you generally =

</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D937141214-16072003>    have to write a check. = That=20

means that RMAN is NOT free.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D937141214-16072003>c)=20

Before version 9, RMAN was arcane and hard to learn. Thanks to = Robert=20

Freeman, it is no </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D937141214-16072003>    longer so. You can = learn how to=20

configure and use RMAN and you can find a decent = book</SPAN></FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D937141214-16072003>    to learn RMAN from. = It's not=20

very hard and it's fairly logical. One reading of the books suffices =

    </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20     class=3D937141214-16072003>    for a good general=20     understanding.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D937141214-16072003>d)=20

Quality of the software: RMAN leaves a lot to be desired. Its = biggest=20

drawback is the fact that</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D937141214-16072003>    it doesn't do any = coordination=20

with the underlying backup catalog. In other words, you can=20 happily</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D937141214-16072003>    declare backup = obsolete in RMAN=20

and Legato will not know anything about it and vice=20 versa.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D937141214-16072003>    You can even delete = backup in=20

Legato and reuse  the tape while RMAN knows nothing about=20 it.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D937141214-16072003>     On the other = hand, RMAN,=20

in contrast to all other methods, does not put tablespaces into=20 the</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D937141214-16072003>     backup mode, = thus=20

generating floods of redo archives. RMAN doesn't backup data blocks = that=20

</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D937141214-16072003>     have never been = used=20

("behind the watermark blocks"), which is great if you have a fresh=20 new</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D937141214-16072003>     datafile which = was added=20

to the tablespace just in case something might  run out of=20 space.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D937141214-16072003>e)  Personnel. Despite the = certification=20

process, it is not always easy to find a trained=20 personnel</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D937141214-16072003>     which knows how = to use it=20

and how  to recover the database. I consider the ability to=20 recover</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D937141214-16072003>     the database a = basis for=20

someone to call himself/herself a DBA. You would be surprised=20 how</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D937141214-16072003>     many people = which claim=20

that title do not know how to recover the database. Even smaller = number=20

</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D937141214-16072003>     knows how to use =

RMAN.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D937141214-16072003>f)   I would suggest Jared = Still, Cary=20

Millsap, Rachel Carmichael, Jonathan Lewis, Wolfgang Breitling,=20 </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D937141214-16072003>    Steve Adams, Gaja V., = Arup=20

Nanda, Kirti Deshpande and</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial = color=3D#0000ff=20

size=3D2><SPAN class=3D937141214-16072003>  Anjo Kolk to start = the Oracle=20

List certification</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D937141214-16072003>    process. = </SPAN></FONT><FONT=20

face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D937141214-16072003>I would trust=20

that one</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2><SPAN=20

class=3D937141214-16072003> more then the OCP. I apologize to = anyone who=20

I might have forgotten.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D937141214-16072003></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mladen Gogala</FONT> <BR><FONT = face=3DArial=20

size=3D2>Oracle DBA</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial = size=3D2>Phone:(203)=20

459-6855</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial = size=3D2>Email:mgogala_at_oxhp.com</FONT>=20

</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT = face=3DTahoma=20

      size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Smith, Ron L.=20
      [mailto:rlsmith_at_kmg.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, July 16, 2003 =
10:59=20
      AM<BR><B>To:</B> Multiple recipients of list =
ORACLE-L<BR><B>Subject:</B>=20
      RMAN &amp; SQL Backtrack<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D328505213-16072003>We have been=20
      using SQL Backtrack for backup and recovery for&nbsp;about 6 years =

      now.&nbsp; We are being pressured to start using RMAN because it =
is=20
      free.&nbsp; Makes sense but I am wondering about reliability, =
complexity,=20
      learning curve, etc...</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
      class=3D328505213-16072003></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D328505213-16072003>Has anyone had=20
      experience with both products or anyone new to RMAN that can give =
me an=20
      idea of what to expect?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
      class=3D328505213-16072003></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
      class=3D328505213-16072003>Thanks!</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
      class=3D328505213-16072003></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
      class=3D328505213-16072003>Ron</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If you are not the intended =

Received on Wed Jul 16 2003 - 12:28:37 CDT