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RE: (Fwd/2)

From: Kirsh, Gary <gary.kirsh_at_gs.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 10:18:48 -0800
Message-ID: <F001.0049967E.20020716101848@fatcity.com>


A new boat, Ferrari, Mig fighter jet, mansion, maybe some Japanese art... the man has some serious expenses. Seriously, I know that Oracle had a problem with shady accounting practices many years ago (late 80's, if I recall correctly). Their stock took a huge hit, and they cleaned up their act. As a result, I think that they have been very conservative in there accounting practices ever since, and have not heard any accusations of untoward accounting practices since them.

I admit that I know almost nothing about accounting. Still, I think it the height of hypocrisy for politicians to accuse anyone of shady accounting practices, when, as I understand, the federal govt itself doesn't abide by the Generally Accepted Accounting Principles to which corporations are expected to adhere. All the Worldcoms and Enrons added together don't equal the tax dollars flushed down the toilet due to govt waste, corruption, fraud and incompetence. As an example:
http://freedom.house.gov/wastewatch/education.asp

Having ceo's sign off on their company's books seems sensible enough. I suspect that when the hot air coming from DC blows over, the investigations will prove that existing laws have been broken, and there will be criminal convictions. Most people don't want to wait for investigations to run their course, and politicians pander to this lack of attention span with by pontificating on TV, then passing more laws, which at best are probably redundant, and at worst have unintended side-effects.

The politicians, especially Democrats, have also successfully exploited class-envy with their screw-the-rich-we'll protect-the-little-guy act. It usually works well for them, so they take advantage of it at every opportunity.

Gary

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 12:30 PM
To: oracle-l_at_fatcity.com; Kirsh, Gary

(test, posting from www.mail2web.com)

Gary,

Certainly. I'm waiting for people to present more factual information. (Maybe Larry needed some petty cash for a new boat or something?)

Instead, what you see is people defending the social privileges of the wealthy technocorporate elites, and the ethos of sleaze, extreme greed and selfishness that they are mired in.

Do you know if Oracle's accounting practices are currently documented in a way that is transparent to investors?

I guess a lot of alleged "facts" will come out after the august deadline that the SEC has imposed for corporate executives to sign off on the validity of their accounting.

regards,
ep

Original Message:



Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 08:53:34 -0800
To: ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com

Eric,

Have you considered the POSSIBILITY that Larry sold the stock without the benefit of insider trading, and simply got lucky with his timing? After all, the main reason Oracle stock has lost so much value is not due to problems specific to the company, but due to problems in the market and economy as a whole. So where would the insider info come into play? And if he really did have insider info, and was acting unethically, why not sell more shares? The amount he sold was probably less than 5% of his holdings.

I don't mean to defend ceo misconduct, corporate fraud, etc, I just think you need look this particular accusation a little more objectively, especially when you consider its source. I have great respect for McCain's war record and heroism, but now he is a politician, a Senator no less. IMHO, one can't take anything any politician says at face value. Given a choice between honesty and self-promotion, I'm afraid politicians too often choose the latter. And without getting into specifics about McCain, he seems to be second in the Senate only to my own Sen. Schumer in his love of getting on TV (Q: What's the most dangerous place in NY? A: Between Chuck Schumer and a TV camera). Larry makes a convenient and easy target, someone a politician knows he can attack, get a good soundbite, and have very little chance of being challenged.

Gary

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 1:13 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

trying again...

| Original Message:
| -----------------
| From: Johnson, M=2E
| Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 10:23:21 -0800
| To: ORACLE-L_at_fatcity=2Ecom
| Subject: RE: McCain on Larry Ellison and Corporate
Responsibility / Re: =
OT

| Not defending Ellison for anything,=20

Understood

| but it appears
| McCain is just another politician who is only interested
| in his future and he constantly takes on these "reform
| ideas" and just makes the matter worse

That sounds really cynical to me. Are you just speculating, or do you have
any info to back that up?

Note that Oracle/Ellison attempted to buy off politicians here in
Sacramento in order to stop the JLAC (legislative) audit of Oracle's ELA
with the State of California

Note that Senator Sarbanes was on the same TV program ("Meet the Press") as
McCain, and generally agreed with McCain that there is a horrible lack of
corporate responsibility, and that reforming the institutions designed to
protect the public's interests has been made extremely difficult by the
influence of corrupt lobbyists and lack of effective campaign reform

Tim Russert (a rare TV journalist with some integrity) and the Senators
spent most of their time discussing the issue of putting executive stock
options on the "expense" sheets so as to more correctly reflect
profitability (or lack thereof)

Do you think it better serves the investment community for sleazy corrupt
executives to be able to hide their shenanighans from analysts and
investors?

| Everyone should accept the fact that we are in a bear
| market and as such all the boats go down

Argh, that is the problem, when you have these outrageous examples of
greedy, corrupt corporate executives cashing out (***AFTER COOKING THE
BOOKS***), leaving others to sink

| Everyone should have been smart enough to sell stocks and
| put their money into cash or better yet short stocks
| when it was very clear that in the Fall of 2000 after the
| initial March 2000 sell off that we were going into
| a prolonged Bear market

"Should have been" !?!?!

That isn't really the issue. As mentioned above, the issue was how excess
greed played out when "the books were cooked" to create a false impression
of profitability

| Ellison probably took the money and ran when this
| became apparent to him and many others. I know I did.

So (regardless of whether Ellison is a good example, or not), do you think
that there should be *any* accountability for the social damage caused by
greed driven unethical accounting practices?

(fwiw, I'm sympathetic to libertarian/"Chicago school" free market
ideology, but I fear that like its opposite, leftist utopianism, when taken
to extremes, it doesn't work all that well in the "real world".)

regards,
ep

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 5:53 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L OT - unix

My understanding is that this was the very first time Ellison had ever sol=
d
Oracle stock, in over 25 years of the company's existence, in 2000, which =
is
the occasion that McCain (and you) are referring to=2E As you might be aw=
are,
there was a far greater "opportunity" for Ellison to "cash out" and leave
Oracle dangling in 1990, when the price dropped from around $20 to $6 almo=
st
overnight after some financial-earning restatements=2E On that occasion, =
he
would certainly have had prior knowledge of what was going to happen, to p=
ut
it mildly=2E In 2000, any foreknowledge of a long-term downturn (26 month=
s
and counting?) would have been worth far more than $700m, especially to
someone holding several billions in equities=2E=2E=2E

> Speaking of herds, or at least what is left behind on
> the ground after they pass:
>
> on "Meet the Press" (TV program), Senator John McCain
> said that Larry Ellison cashed out $700,000,000 of his
> Oracle stocks just before they lost most of their
> value (sarcasm: I'm sure he is planning on plowing it
> back into the company, especially improving quality in
> OWS and Metalink)=2E
>
> regards,
> ep
>
>
> On 14 Jul 2002 at 16:28, Alex wrote:
>
> Date sent:      Sun, 14 Jul 2002 16:28:18 -0800
> the future
> To:             Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> <ORACLE-L_at_fatcity=2Ecom>
>
> > =2E=2E=2E As far as DB vendors targeting linux they move in herds and =
have
> > just finished their linux port from when "linux" was a buzzword=2E
>
> =2E=2E


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-- 
Author: Kirsh, Gary
  INET: gary.kirsh_at_gs.com

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-- 
Author: Kirsh, Gary
  INET: gary.kirsh_at_gs.com

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Received on Tue Jul 16 2002 - 13:18:48 CDT

Original text of this message

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