X-Received: by 10.182.78.69 with SMTP id z5mr11060197obw.4.1422847180549; Sun, 01 Feb 2015 19:19:40 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.50.85.17 with SMTP id d17mr103881igz.7.1422847180372; Sun, 01 Feb 2015 19:19:40 -0800 (PST) Path: news.cambrium.nl!textnews.cambrium.nl!feeder3.cambriumusenet.nl!feed.tweaknews.nl!194.109.133.86.MISMATCH!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed3a.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!newspeer1.nac.net!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!hl2no7062919igb.0!news-out.google.com!qk8ni19963igc.0!nntp.google.com!hl2no7062888igb.0!postnews.google.com!glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: comp.databases.theory Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 19:19:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20150201185423.e93c5561.jklowden@speakeasy.net> Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com; posting-host=101.175.1.237; posting-account=bFMNewoAAAAHC6b_JPlV7XvI31zIuG5T NNTP-Posting-Host: 101.175.1.237 References: <598053b2-cfbf-4c07-a0e6-e376da30054d@googlegroups.com> <20150201185423.e93c5561.jklowden@speakeasy.net> User-Agent: G2/1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <2bc490ba-0f60-45ec-982f-1958eb7a04c4@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Progress of Small Task From: Derek Asirvadem Injection-Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 03:19:40 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lines: 52 Xref: news.cambrium.nl James Thank you for your responses. Just a quick response for now, while I compi= le a full response. First, I happily acknowledge that you are definitely not in the difficult-t= o-impossible category re implementation of hierarchical data. Actually as = an implementer, period. Second, I really appreciate the directness and concision of your responses. Third, it is uncanny to me at least that you and I are so close on some ite= ms, so much in agreement, but so far apart on others. It feels like (speak= ing as a non-scientist!) you and I are playing on the same team, against th= e same enemy, and we are among the better players ... but you have a partic= ular bone that is missing, and thus you have certain blind spots, can't-dos= . And I readily acknowledge that if you use the same analogy, you would pr= obably say the same thing about me. It is in no way an insult, more of a c= oncern, how do I get this team member past his blind spot, how do I get him= to insert that missing bone. Say the bone is a femur. The missing bone is of course your perception of hierarchies. To you, it i= s entirely outside the RM, your body (note your emotive comments), the rest= of which is so integrated. Something earlier than the Alice book (Date ? Darwen ?) planted that notion= in you. The Alice book has reinforced that notion (I will detail that lat= er), so you see the bone as a tool, say a hockey stick, external to your bo= dy, the RM. And you think I am nuts, because I play, without a hockey stic= k. And for me, who has read many of those books, binned them, retaining only C= odd, for me who has practised only Codd, hierarchies are handled, completel= y and totally, within the RM. And SQL as the one-and-only data sub-languag= e (definitely has faults, but let's not get distracted) that implements the= RM, to whatever degree (let's not argue about "relations"), handles hierar= chies completely and easily. Iff you understand the first sentence in this= para. You cannot execute the second sentence otherwise, of course you wil= l have "difficulty". Thus you revert to the bone, the hockey stick, outsid= e your body, the RM.=20 You have been subverted. Unless you are aware that you have been subverted, you will not be open to = anything I say about this matter. You will not be able to hypothesise and = examine what I say, the examples I give, or provide me with specific exampl= es. Thanks again. More, later. Cheers Derek