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Home -> Community -> Usenet -> c.d.o.server -> Re: rman recover/restore from backup
Dear Support Ron,
what makes
superior to
what is the advantage of this procedure ?
regards
s.kapitza
"Ron" <support_at_dbainfopower.com> wrote in message news:<6POdnZF_DPsRKaTdRVn-vA_at_comcast.com>...
> Hello Norm,
>
> I just got back after two 15 hour days of work (nice weekend, I guess), so
> sorry for the delay.
>
> Below are the steps involved in the logs included. Hope everything is
> clear and simple.
>
> And Hope you are right and people you mentioned would be nice and brave to
> recognize that other things and methods exist outside of their world.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ron
> DBA Infopower
> http://www.dbainfopower.com
> Standard disclaimer:
> http://www.dbainfopower.com/dbaip_advice_disclaimer.html
>
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Environment:
>
> db1 - original database
>
> tablespaces: system (contains additonal rollback segment and used as sort
> tablespace for simplicity)
> users01 (contains demo table) - tablespace to be recovered and
> transferred
>
> create database db1
> controlfile reuse
> archivelog
> datafile '/oracle/data07/tdb/db1/db1_sys.dbf' size 300M
> logfile group 1 '/oracle/data07/tdb/db1/db1_log1.dbf' size 100M
> ,group 2 '/oracle/data07/tdb/db1/db1_log2.dbf' size 100M
> ,group 3 '/oracle/data07/tdb/db1/db1_log3.dbf' size 100M
> ;
>
> create tablespace users01 datafile '/oracle/data07/tdb/db1/db_users01.dbf'
> size 10M
> create rollback segment rbs_sys2 (for demo operations)
> alter rollback segment rbs_sys2 online
>
>
> db2 - new database
>
> tablespaces: system (contains additonal rollback segment and used as sort
> tablespace for simplicity)
>
> create database db2
> controlfile reuse
> archivelog
> datafile '/oracle/data07/tdb/db2/db1_sys.dbf' size 300M
> logfile group 1 '/oracle/data07/tdb/db2/db2_log1.dbf' size 100M
> ,group 2 '/oracle/data07/tdb/db2/db2_log2.dbf' size 100M
> ,group 3 '/oracle/data07/tdb/db2/db2_log3.dbf' size 100M
> ;
>
>
> db1aux - clone database of db1 (created in a process)
>
> init.ora contains some modified parameters (listed below).
>
>
> Step #1:
>
> in db1 - create demo user, demo table
>
> Step #2
>
> run rman backup of db1, incremental, level 0
>
> Step #3
>
> remove database db1 (or move to temp directory - shutdown before)
>
> Step #4
>
> create empty db1 directories
>
> extract controlfile from db1 rman backupset to db1 directories (run PL/SQL
> block from db2)
>
> Step #5
>
> extract archivelogs from db1 rman backupset to db1aux archive dest (run
> PL/SQL block from db2).
>
> Step #6
>
> startup mount db1 database using recovered controlfile
> startup nomount db1aux clone instance
>
> Step #7
>
> rman connect to db1 , clone connect to db1aux
>
> restore and replicate controlfile to clone (clone database mounted)
>
> clone restore system and users01 datafiles
>
> Step #8
>
> db1aux: recover database until cancel
> db1aux: alter database open resetlogs
>
> Step #9
>
> exp tts of user01 tablespace from db1aux (ts is in read only by default)
>
>
> Step #10
> copy users01 datafile to db2 directory
> imp tts of users01 into db2
>
> Step #11
>
> verify data is accessabe
> bring tablespace users01 read write
>
>
> >>>> initdb1aux.ora
>
> cat initdb1aux.ora
>
> db_name = db1
> compatible = 9.2.0.3
> #rollback_segments=(rbs01,rbs02,rbs03,rbs04,rbs05,rbs06,rbs07,rbs08,rbs09,rb
> s10,big,big2, big3)
> control_files = (/oracle/data07/tdb/db1aux/cntrldb1.dbf)
> db_files = 1000
> db_block_size = 8192
> db_cache_size=200m
> hash_area_size = 4096000
> log_checkpoints_to_alert = true
> pre_page_sga = false
> shared_pool_size = 100000000
> os_authent_prefix=""
> log_checkpoint_interval = 5000000
> processes= 200
> dml_locks = 200
> log_buffer = 512000
> timed_statistics = true
> max_dump_file_size = 4000000
> sort_area_size = 15000000
> transactions_per_rollback_segment = 16
> open_cursors = 300
> recovery_parallelism=8
> parallel_min_servers = 8
> parallel_max_servers = 50
> background_dump_dest=/oracle/data07/tdb/db1aux/bdump
> core_dump_dest=/oracle/data07/tdb/db1aux/cdump
> user_dump_dest=/oracle/data07/tdb/db1aux/udump
> log_archive_start = false
> #log_archive_format= db1_%s.arc
> #log_archive_dest=/oracle/data07/tdb/db1/archive
> #log_checkpoint_timeout = 0
> NLS_DATE_FORMAT="DD-MON-RR"
> _sqlexec_progression_cost=0
> _small_table_threshold=15000
> _spin_count=5000
> _sqlexec_progression_cost=0
> parallel_execution_message_size=16384
> optimizer_mode=choose
> db_writer_processes=2
> session_cached_cursors=400
> fast_start_mttr_target = 300
> pga_aggregate_target = 33554432
> aq_tm_processes = 1
> job_queue_processes =10
> remote_login_passwordfile = exclusive
> # We don't use undo_management = AUTO
> lock_name_space=db1aux
> instance_name=db1aux
> db_file_name_convert =('/oracle/data07/tdb/db1/',
> '/oracle/data07/tdb/db1aux/')
> log_file_name_convert=('/oracle/data07/tdb/db1/',
> '/oracle/data07/tdb/db1aux/')
>
> >>>> END
>
>
> >> demo setup on db1
>
> SQL> create user demo identified by demo default tablespace users01;
> User created.
> SQL> grant connect, resource to demo;
> Grant succeeded.
> SQL> connect demo/demo
> Error accessing PRODUCT_USER_PROFILE
> Warning: Product user profile information not loaded!
> You may need to run PUPBLD.SQL as SYSTEM
> Connected.
>
> SQL> create table demo_test ( n number ) ;
> Table created.
> SQL> insert into demo_test values (20);
> 1 row created.
> SQL> c/20/30/
> 1* insert into demo_test values (30)
> SQL> /
> 1 row created.
> SQL> commit;
> Commit complete.
> SQL>
>
>
> >>>> Backup Steps
>
> rman target sys/db0
>
> Recovery Manager: Release 9.2.0.3.0 - 64bit Production
>
> Copyright (c) 1995, 2002, Oracle Corporation. All rights reserved.
>
> connected to target database: DB1 (DBID=1112418489)
>
> run {
> sql "alter system archive log current";
> backup incremental level 0 database
> format '/oracle/data07/tdb/db1backup_%d_inc_0_%U'
> archivelog all
> current controlfile
> tag=db1_inc_0;
> }
>
> Starting backup at 22-FEB-04
> allocated channel: ORA_DISK_1
> channel ORA_DISK_1: sid=17 devtype=DISK
> channel ORA_DISK_1: starting incremental level 0 datafile backupset
> channel ORA_DISK_1: specifying datafile(s) in backupset
> including current controlfile in backupset
> input datafile fno=00001 name=/oracle/data07/tdb/db1/db1_sys.dbf
> input datafile fno=00002 name=/oracle/data07/tdb/db1/db_users01.dbf
> channel ORA_DISK_1: starting piece 1 at 22-FEB-04
> channel ORA_DISK_1: finished piece 1 at 22-FEB-04
> piece handle=/oracle/data07/tdb/db1backup_DB1_inc_0_09feohho_1_1
> comment=NONE
> channel ORA_DISK_1: backup set complete, elapsed time: 00:00:07
> channel ORA_DISK_1: starting archive log backupset
> channel ORA_DISK_1: specifying archive log(s) in backup set
> input archive log thread=1 sequence=1 recid=1 stamp=518555436
> input archive log thread=1 sequence=2 recid=2 stamp=518555874
> input archive log thread=1 sequence=3 recid=3 stamp=518710602
> input archive log thread=1 sequence=4 recid=4 stamp=518797909
> input archive log thread=1 sequence=5 recid=5 stamp=518800951
> channel ORA_DISK_1: starting piece 1 at 22-FEB-04
> channel ORA_DISK_1: finished piece 1 at 22-FEB-04
> piece handle=/oracle/reports/9203/dbs/0afeohhv_1_1 comment=NONE
> channel ORA_DISK_1: backup set complete, elapsed time: 00:00:08
> channel ORA_DISK_1: starting incremental level 0 datafile backupset
> channel ORA_DISK_1: specifying datafile(s) in backupset
> including current controlfile in backupset
> channel ORA_DISK_1: starting piece 1 at 22-FEB-04
> channel ORA_DISK_1: finished piece 1 at 22-FEB-04
> piece handle=/oracle/reports/9203/dbs/0bfeohi7_1_1 comment=NONE
> channel ORA_DISK_1: backup set complete, elapsed time: 00:00:01
> Finished backup at 22-FEB-04
>
> >>> Restore db1 control file from backupset (from db2 database)
>
> DECLARE
> v_dev varchar2(50);
> v_done boolean;
> v_backup varchar2 (255);
> BEGIN
> v_backup :='/oracle/data07/tdb/db1backup_DB1_inc_0_09feohho_1_1';
> v_dev:=sys.dbms_backup_restore.deviceAllocate(ident=>'t1');
> sys.dbms_backup_restore.restoreSetDatafile;
>
> sys.dbms_backup_restore.restoreControlfileTo(cfname=>'/oracle/data07/tdb/db1
> /cntrldb1.dbf');
> sys.dbms_backup_restore.restoreBackupPiece(done=>v_done, handle=>v_backup,
> params=>null);
> sys.dbms_backup_restore.deviceDeallocate;
> END;
> /
>
> PL/SQL procedure successfully completed.
>
> >>> Restore db1 archive logs from backupset (from db2 database)
>
> DECLARE
> v_dev varchar2(50);
> v_done boolean:=false;
> v_backup varchar2(255);
> BEGIN
> v_backup := '/oracle/reports/9203/dbs/0afeohhv_1_1';
> v_dev:=sys.dbms_backup_restore.deviceAllocate( ident=>'t1');
>
> sys.dbms_backup_restore.restoreSetArchivedLog(destination=>'/oracle/data07/t
> db/db1aux/archive/arch_');
> sys.dbms_backup_restore.restoreArchivedLog(thread=>1, sequence=>&1);
> sys.dbms_backup_restore.restoreBackupPiece(done=>v_done, handle=>v_backup,
> params=>null);
> sys.dbms_backup_restore.deviceDeallocate;
> END;
>
> /
> Enter value for 1: 1
> old 9: sys.dbms_backup_restore.restoreArchivedLog(thread=>1,
> sequence=>&1);
> new 9: sys.dbms_backup_restore.restoreArchivedLog(thread=>1,
> sequence=>1);
> PL/SQL procedure successfully completed.
>
> SQL> /
> Enter value for 1: 2
> old 9: sys.dbms_backup_restore.restoreArchivedLog(thread=>1,
> sequence=>&1);
> new 9: sys.dbms_backup_restore.restoreArchivedLog(thread=>1,
> sequence=>2);
> PL/SQL procedure successfully completed.
>
> SQL> /
> Enter value for 1: 3
> old 9: sys.dbms_backup_restore.restoreArchivedLog(thread=>1,
> sequence=>&1);
> new 9: sys.dbms_backup_restore.restoreArchivedLog(thread=>1,
> sequence=>3);
> PL/SQL procedure successfully completed.
>
> SQL> /
> Enter value for 1: 4
> old 9: sys.dbms_backup_restore.restoreArchivedLog(thread=>1,
> sequence=>&1);
> new 9: sys.dbms_backup_restore.restoreArchivedLog(thread=>1,
> sequence=>4);
> PL/SQL procedure successfully completed.
>
> SQL> /
> Enter value for 1: 5
> old 9: sys.dbms_backup_restore.restoreArchivedLog(thread=>1,
> sequence=>&1);
> new 9: sys.dbms_backup_restore.restoreArchivedLog(thread=>1,
> sequence=>5);
> PL/SQL procedure successfully completed.
>
> >>> mount db1 database (using restored controlfile)
>
> SQL> startup mount
> ORACLE instance started.
>
> Total System Global Area 404047768 bytes
> Fixed Size 731032 bytes
> Variable Size 184549376 bytes
> Database Buffers 218103808 bytes
> Redo Buffers 663552 bytes
> Database mounted.
> SQL>
>
>
> >>>> startup nomount db1aux
>
> SQL> up nomount
> ORACLE instance started.
>
> Total System Global Area 404047768 bytes
> Fixed Size 731032 bytes
> Variable Size 184549376 bytes
> Database Buffers 218103808 bytes
> Redo Buffers 663552 bytes
> SQL>
>
> >>>>> restore clone controlfile
>
> rman target sys/db1 clone sys/oracle_at_db1aux
>
> Recovery Manager: Release 9.2.0.3.0 - 64bit Production
>
> Copyright (c) 1995, 2002, Oracle Corporation. All rights reserved.
>
> connected to target database: DB1 (DBID=1112418489)
> connected to auxiliary database: db1 (not mounted)
>
> run {
> restore clone controlfile to clone_cf;
> replicate clone controlfile from clone_cf;
> sql clone 'alter database mount clone database';
> }
>
> 2> 3> 4> 5>
> Starting restore at 22-FEB-04
>
> using target database controlfile instead of recovery catalog
> allocated channel: ORA_AUX_DISK_1
> channel ORA_AUX_DISK_1: sid=12 devtype=DISK
> channel ORA_AUX_DISK_1: starting datafile backupset restore
> channel ORA_AUX_DISK_1: restoring controlfile
> output filename=/oracle/data07/tdb/db1aux/cntrldb1.dbf
> channel ORA_AUX_DISK_1: restored backup piece 1
> piece handle=/oracle/reports/9203/dbs/08feoej5_1_1 tag=DB1_INC_0 params=NULL
> channel ORA_AUX_DISK_1: restore complete
> Finished restore at 22-FEB-04
>
> replicating controlfile
> input filename=/oracle/data07/tdb/db1aux/cntrldb1.dbf
>
> sql statement: alter database mount clone database
>
>
> >>> restore db1 datafiles to clone database
>
>
> run {
> set until sequence = 4 thread = 1;
> set newname for datafile 1 to '/oracle/data07/tdb/db1aux/db1_sys.dbf';
> set newname for datafile 2 to '/oracle/data07/tdb/db1aux/db_users01.dbf';
> restore clone datafile 1;
> restore clone datafile 2;
> switch clone datafile all;
> sql clone "alter database datafile 1 online";
> sql clone "alter database datafile 2 online";
> }
>
> executing command: SET until clause
>
> executing command: SET NEWNAME
>
> executing command: SET NEWNAME
>
> Starting restore at 22-FEB-04
>
> using channel ORA_AUX_DISK_1
> channel ORA_AUX_DISK_1: starting datafile backupset restore
> channel ORA_AUX_DISK_1: specifying datafile(s) to restore from backup set
> restoring datafile 00001 to /oracle/data07/tdb/db1aux/db1_sys.dbf
> channel ORA_AUX_DISK_1: restored backup piece 1
> piece handle=/oracle/data07/tdb/db1backup_DB1_inc_0_02feld45_1_1
> tag=DB1_INC_0 params=NULL
> channel ORA_AUX_DISK_1: restore complete
> Finished restore at 22-FEB-04
>
> Starting restore at 22-FEB-04
>
> using channel ORA_AUX_DISK_1
> channel ORA_AUX_DISK_1: starting datafile backupset restore
> channel ORA_AUX_DISK_1: specifying datafile(s) to restore from backup set
> restoring datafile 00002 to /oracle/data07/tdb/db1aux/db_users01.dbf
> channel ORA_AUX_DISK_1: restored backup piece 1
> piece handle=/oracle/data07/tdb/db1backup_DB1_inc_0_02feld45_1_1
> tag=DB1_INC_0 params=NULL
> channel ORA_AUX_DISK_1: restore complete
> Finished restore at 22-FEB-04
>
>
> sql statement: alter database datafile 1 online
>
> sql statement: alter database datafile 2 online
>
>
> >> recover clone database
>
>
> SQL> recover database using backup controlfile until cancel
>
> ORA-00279: change 198311 generated at 02/21/2004 14:18:18 needed for thread
> 1
> ORA-00289: suggestion : /oracle/reports/9203/dbs/arch1_4.dbf
> ORA-00280: change 198311 for thread 1 is in sequence #4
>
>
> Specify log: {<RET>=suggested | filename | AUTO | CANCEL}
> /oracle/data07/tdb/db1aux/archive/arch_db2_4.arc
> ORA-00279: change 198930 generated at 02/22/2004 14:31:49 needed for thread
> 1
> ORA-00289: suggestion : /oracle/reports/9203/dbs/arch1_5.dbf
> ORA-00280: change 198930 for thread 1 is in sequence #5
> ORA-00278: log file '/oracle/data07/tdb/db1aux/archive/arch_db2_4.arc' no
> longer needed for this recovery
>
> Specify log: {<RET>=suggested | filename | AUTO | CANCEL}
> /oracle/data07/tdb/db1aux/archive/arch_db2_5.arc
> ORA-00279: change 199509 generated at 02/22/2004 15:22:30 needed for thread
> 1
> ORA-00289: suggestion : /oracle/reports/9203/dbs/arch1_6.dbf
> ORA-00280: change 199509 for thread 1 is in sequence #6
> ORA-00278: log file '/oracle/data07/tdb/db1aux/archive/arch_db2_5.arc' no
> longer needed for this recovery
>
>
> Specify log: {<RET>=suggested | filename | AUTO | CANCEL}
> cancel
> Media recovery cancelled.
>
> SQL> alter database open resetlogs;
>
> Database altered.
> SQL>
>
>
> >>> Verify user01 data is available:
>
> setenv ORACLE_SID db1aux
> ora si
>
> SQL*Plus: Release 9.2.0.3.0 - Production on Sun Feb 22 23:30:49 2004
>
> Copyright (c) 1982, 2002, Oracle Corporation. All rights reserved.
>
>
> Connected to:
> Oracle9i Enterprise Edition Release 9.2.0.3.0 - 64bit Production
> With the Partitioning, Oracle Label Security, OLAP and Oracle Data Mining
> options
> JServer Release 9.2.0.3.0 - Production
>
> SQL> connect demo/demo
> Error accessing PRODUCT_USER_PROFILE
> Warning: Product user profile information not loaded!
> You may need to run PUPBLD.SQL as SYSTEM
> Connected.
> SQL> select * from tab;
>
> TNAME TABTYPE CLUSTERID
> ------------------------------ ------- ----------
> DEMO_TEST TABLE
>
> SQL> select * from DEMO_TEST;
>
> N
> ----------
> 20
> 30
>
> SQL> connect / as sysdba
> Connected.
> SQL> select status , tablespace_name from dba_tablespaces;
>
> STATUS TABLESPACE_NAME
> --------- ------------------------------
> ONLINE SYSTEM
> READ ONLY USERS01
>
> SQL>
>
> >> tts export of users01
>
> exp userid=\'sys/oracle as sysdba\' TRANSPORT_TABLESPACE=y
> tablespaces=USERS01 file=users01.dmp
>
> Export: Release 9.2.0.3.0 - Production on Sun Feb 22 15:52:26 2004
> Copyright (c) 1982, 2002, Oracle Corporation. All rights reserved.
> Connected to: Oracle9i Enterprise Edition Release 9.2.0.3.0 - 64bit
> Production
> With the Partitioning, Oracle Label Security, OLAP and Oracle Data Mining
> options
> JServer Release 9.2.0.3.0 - Production
> Export done in WE8ISO8859P1 character set and AL16UTF16 NCHAR character set
> erver uses US7ASCII character set (possible charset conversion)
> ote: table data (rows) will not be exported
> bout to export transportable tablespace metadata...
> or tablespace USERS01 ...
> exporting cluster definitions
> exporting table definitions
> . exporting table DEMO_TEST
> exporting referential integrity constraints
> exporting triggers
> end transportable tablespace metadata export
> Export terminated successfully without warnings.
>
>
> >> copy datafile and tts import of users01 to db2
>
> cp db_users01.dbf ../db2/
>
> imp userid =\'sys/db2 as sysdba\' TRANSPORT_TABLESPACE=y file=users01.dmp
> datafiles=/oracle/data07/tdb/db2/db_users01.dbf
>
> Import: Release 9.2.0.3.0 - Production on Sun Feb 22 15:56:11 2004
>
> Copyright (c) 1982, 2002, Oracle Corporation. All rights reserved.
> Connected to: Oracle9i Enterprise Edition Release 9.2.0.3.0 - 64bit
> Production
> With the Partitioning, Oracle Label Security, OLAP and Oracle Data Mining
> options
> JServer Release 9.2.0.3.0 - Production
>
> Export file created by EXPORT:V09.02.00 via conventional path
> About to import transportable tablespace(s) metadata...
> import done in WE8ISO8859P1 character set and AL16UTF16 NCHAR character set
> import server uses US7ASCII character set (possible charset conversion)
> . importing SYS's objects into SYS
> . importing DEMO's objects into DEMO
> . . importing table "DEMO_TEST"
> Import terminated successfully without warnings.
>
> db1aux oracle:/oracle/data07/tdb/db2 >
>
>
> SQL> connect demo/demo
> Error accessing PRODUCT_USER_PROFILE
> Warning: Product user profile information not loaded!
> You may need to run PUPBLD.SQL as SYSTEM
> Connected.
>
> SQL> select * from demo_test;
>
> N
> ----------
> 20
> 30
>
> SQL> alter tablespace users01 read write;
>
> Tablespace altered.
>
>
> "Norman Dunbar" <norman.dunbar_at_lfs.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:3078e2fe.0402191028.50bce0ec_at_posting.google.com...
> > Eee, by 'eck. I go away for a couple of monthsand when I come back
> > (briefly) there's all sorts of carnage going on.
> >
> > I'm with Richard on this one - it's been a hell of a thread and I love
> > it.
> >
> > It's a hard world behind the firewall. No news, b*gg*r all email most
> > of the time, and an 'interesting' situation of DBAing at this place.
> > :o)
> >
> > No offence Sybrand - I'd hate to fall out with you - but I especially
> > loved the bit where you gave advice on civil behaviour. Nice one :o)
> >
> >
> > Anyway, here's my £0.02 as it were :
> >
> > "Ron" <support_at_dbainfopower.com> wrote in message
> news:<GIudnVoTtMuB7a_d4p2dnA_at_comcast.com>...
> > > Hello Daniel,
> > >
> > > Please, not like that ;-)
> > > Can you please expand on may lack on English skills?
> > > Should I send you my English literature scores to washington.edu?
> >
> > If ever someone was setting themselves up for a huge fall, this is it.
> > I look forward to see what happens next.
> >
> > There is of course another way to sort out the 'minor' differences
> > here, Ron, how about recreating a setup where you craete a test
> > database (full of useful data) and bollox it in exactly the same way
> > as the OP did, or in a similar way. Then, create a new one using dbca
> > as the OP did, and recover it using your point in time recovery
> > advice.
> >
> > Spool the exercise to a file and let us see it here. If it works, and
> > I very much doubt that it will, I'm almost 100% certain that Howard
> > will retract all he said about your advice, Sybrand will apologise
> > profusely and Richard will also gladly refute what he said.
> >
> > I have to admit that I *am* 100% sure that it will not work, or at
> > least not recover the database back to exactly the same pont in time
> > as Howard's advice did.
> >
> > Given the situation here, I'd have taken Howard's advice any day. But
> > then, I take advice from people I know have practiced (should that be
> > practised - I can't remeber?) and experimented with the procedures
> > they advise on. I've seen the results (and the hard work) that go into
> > Howard's advice in the past - have a quick Google and see for yourself
> > - so I know I can trust him and what he says.
> >
> > I have also seen him publicly apologise when he gave incorrect or
> > insufficient advice too. Something you might want to consider
> > sometime.
> >
> > If my english isn't up to scratch then don't attempt to correct me, I
> > don't care because I'm not English and English is not my first
> > language - I'm Scottish :o)
> >
> > (And on that note, I'm anticipating a huge defeat at the weekend when
> > we play England in the 6 Nations Rugby. Just like last night at the
> > hands of the Welsh in the footie. We are totally cr4p at the moment in
> > everything, except curling I suppose - we won the Olympics at that!)
> >
> >
> > Yours in anticipation,
> >
> > Norm.
> >
> > (Hopefully, I'll get to read some of the replies. This Googling is a
> > major PITA.)
> >
> > And by the way, those who know me will also know that the email
> > address is a spam trap - it no longer exists.
Received on Mon Feb 23 2004 - 10:40:12 CST
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