Re: SAP BW compared to Essbase/SQLServer/Oracle as a Enterprise Data

Mario & Valli

I will email the Powerpoint comparative benchmark presentation from SAP. If you need more info on this there is a Program Manager contact at Microsoft you can contact him as well. But it is definitely not rocket science that you need a benchmark to prove it if you are already running BW it is quite easy to do. We took couple of BW cubes pulled data of them into MS OLAP cubes a cube in BW which was around 4.5 GB ROLAP cube on Oracle 816 database was around 100 MB in MS OLAP results might differ from cube to cube. But this is not an aspersion against Oracle which is a great database but it is how BW creates a complex redundancy through over engineering. I really suggest apart from the benchmark you migrate a couple of cubes from BW to MS OLAP and measure the size difference in the cubes storage space, time to build the cubes, the reporting frontends available to MS OLAP vs SAP BW and last but not the least the labor to build and manage these, the query response times and the hardware infrastructure needed to run this - you will be amazed at the outcome.

The above SAP Presentation compares SQL server running on a 8 way Compaq proliant to a DB2 running on a 24 way UNIX server and SQL out performs the DB2 as per SAP benchmark and the cubes size is 10 times smaller than the DB2 ROLAP cubes.

For the BW writeup from Nigel Pendse I think it is a subscription article you need to contact OLAP report or Nigel Pendse personally about it to get a copy of it.

Once you have gone through this experience you will realise how many SAP BW customers have been taken for a ride paying millions of dollars on licensing, labor and hardware infrastructure to run the SAP BW beast.

Thanks
Belinda

"valligurram_at_yahoo.com" <anonymous_at_discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message news:<1434201c3f7fd$2015ec00$a601280a_at_phx.gbl>...
> Hello Belinda, You are absolutely correct!
> We had high productivity on Olap. SAP BW white elephant
> was let in, after resisting for several years. Now it
> drains dollars and hours beyond estimates and leave
> frustrated analysts.
>
> Can you please email me the link!!
>
> Thanks,
> Valli
>
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >If there is anybody out there still looking for a
> comparison of SAP BW
> >to SQL Server I would like to let you know we were one of
> the large
> >SAP BW sites and having been acutely frustrated with BW
> we converted
> >to SQL Server OLAP Services. There is a interesting
> Whitepaper on the
> >Microsoft SAP Congress web site created by SAP themselves
> where they
> >have benchmarked a SQL Server and OLAP Services running
> on a 8 way NT
> >box outperformed SAP BW systems ruuning on 24 way UNIX
> databases-what
> >better testimony than from SAP themselves. Further, SAP's
> findings
> >were the BW cubes moved to SQL Server OLAP services were
> 10 times
> >smaller this shows the appalling BW technology. If you
> have trouble
> >finding this benchmark paper let me know.
> >
> >After seeing the results of a pilot migration we migrated
> our entire
> >SAP BW applications to SQL server OLAP services at that
> Oracle 9i OLAP
> >was still not in General availability but if you are
> thinking of a
> >alternative now worthwhile to evaluate Oracle 9i OLAP &
> SQL Server
> >OLAP services to the white elephant SAP BW. You will
> discover after
> >this how many more less than average intelligence
> customers with less
> >than average commonsense are running this SAP white
> elephant called
> >SAP BW paying fortune to SAP.
> >
> >Nigel Pendse as published a very interesting article on
> SAP BW a
> >worthwhile article to read if you are already being bled
> dry by SAP.
> >
> >Belinda
> >
> >
> >
> >From: Amanda Jones (amandajonesbc_at_lycos.com)
> >Subject: SAP BW compared to Essbase/SQLServer/Oracle as a
> Enterprise
> >Data Warehouse & OLAP application
> >
> >
> >View this article only
> >Newsgroups: comp.databases.olap,
> comp.databases.oracle.marketplace,
> >comp.databases.oracle.server,
> microsoft.public.sqlserver.datawarehouse
> >Date: 2003-01-11 01:37:30 PST
> >
> >
> >Hello All
> >
> >My company as asked me to prepare and evaluate between
> alternative
> >solutions for data warehousing and one of our major
> source system to
> >the data warehouse is SAP R/3 but of course we have other
> source
> >systems apart from SAP.
> >
> >I am wondering how good is SAP Business Warehouse - BW
> 30B the latest
> >version of SAP BW as a solution. I have personally talked
> to quite a
> >few customers using SAP BW I could not get a good
> feedback about the
> >product from SAP customers. Some of the customers
> indicated following
> >issues with SAP BW:
> > -difficult to use
> > -went through long implementation cycles
> > -performance was poor and scalability issues
> > -maintaining the application was expensive since SAP BW
> and ABAP
> > consultants are needed for ongoing maintenance.
> >
> >Apart from it we figured out SAP BW 30B does not have any
> ETL tool in
> >it with ETL being 70-80% of the data warehousing effort I
> am bit
> >sceptical how BW can run without a proper ETL tool. The
> part that
> >caused us most concern was the language to extract,
> transform and load
> >in SAP BW was ABAP and ABAP is proprietary which would
> cause us a
> >major steep cost of ownership even for initial
> implementation to
> >ongoing maintenance since our SAP project was not easy to
> implement
> >and ABAP programmers are not available for less that
> $1000/day. So we
> >would need expensive ABAP programmers to develop
> extractors for SAP
> >R/3.
> >
> >Next configuring SAP BW needed specialist SAP BW
> consultants and we
> >found out good SAP BW consultants were hard to get and
> getting
> >consulting help from SAP would cost us - $2000/day. Apart
> from this
> >the reporting layer in SAP BW was Microsoft Excel and any
> programming
> >of the reporting was all done in ABAP again and for
> projecting reports
> >Crystal reports was available but we had to buy a
> seperate license for
> >Crystal reports and indications was in addition to SAP BW
> we had to
> >buy a CPU based license for Crystal in addition. Since,
> we have
> >non-SAP data sources to integrate into the data warehouse
> we were told
> >we need a ETL tool like Ascential and we are to buy a
> seperate license
> >to buy Ascential
> >ETL tool once more CPU based licensing. Apart from buying
> a ETL tool
> >like Ascential customers who had to build ETL to SAP BW
> have built
> >part of the ETL process the extraction layer in Ascential
> and the
> >transform and load part was written in ABAP for
> performance and that
> >was the only solution for doing transforms and loads was
> to use ABAP
> >programming.
> >
> >So in all staffing requirements we found for SAP BW to
> implement a
> >enterprise data warehouse was we need :
> >Read the rest of this message... (146 more lines)
> >
> >Message 2 in thread
> >From: Nigel Pendse (nigelp_at_nospam.compuserve.com)
> >Subject: Re: SAP BW compared to Essbase/SQLServer/Oracle
> as a
> >Enterprise Data Warehouse & OLAP application
> >
> >
> >View this article only
> >Newsgroups: comp.databases.olap,
> comp.databases.oracle.marketplace,
> >comp.databases.oracle.server,
> microsoft.public.sqlserver.datawarehouse
> >Date: 2003-01-11 02:18:11 PST
> >
> >
> >
> >"Amanda Jones" <amandajonesbc_at_lycos.com> wrote in message
> >news:d42580f.0301110137.5d6bdcca_at_posting.google.com...
> >> Hello All
> >>
> >> My company as asked me to prepare and evaluate between
> alternative
> >> solutions for data warehousing and one of our major
> source system to
> >> the data warehouse is SAP R/3 but of course we have
> other source
> >> systems apart from SAP.
> ><snip>
> >
> >> Precisely I am wondering why not Oracle 9i OLAP or SQL
> Server 2000 or
> >> Oracle/SQL Server with Hyperion Essbase/Cognos. Some of
> the SAP BW
> >> consultants claim SAP BW is better than Business
> Objects, Cognos or
> >> Hyperion. Can you please throw some light and compare
> SAP BW to
> >> 9iOLAP/MicrsoftOLAP2000/Essbase/BO/Cognos &
> Acta/Informatica and if
> >> any of you are using any of these alternative solutions
> can you please
> >> provide your experiences with these alternatives to SAP
> BW like Acta
> >> with Essbase/Oracle/Cognos or SQL Server and if there
> are any resource
> >> on the net which outline how to evaluate a data
> warehouse.
> >
> >The OLAP Survey 2 also confirmed the low success rates of
> SAP BW
> >users.
> >Using an index based on eight separate benefits, SAP BW
> users reported
> >the
> >lowest scores among the nine products which had enough
> respondents to
> >report. They also had the second lowest achievement of
> business goals
> >among
> >the same group. They also had an above-average rate of
> reporting
> >technical
> >problems (worse than any of the other products on your
> list).
> >
> >But, bizarrely, they also had the greatest loyalty --
> presumably, many
> >SAP
> >R/3 sites have a fanatical loyalty to the vendor (after
> having
> >invested so
> >much), and despite the poor experiences of BW, are
> reluctant to
> >consider
> >third party alternatives, even though *all* the third
> party
> >alternatives
> >perform better.
> >
> >The same survey found that SAP BW users were the least
> likely to have
> >performed a competitive product evaluation of all (only
> 24% of the BW
> >sites
> >surveyed had done this, against an average of 50%). This
> suggests that
> >if
> >people actually take the trouble to do what you're doing,
> they soon
> >discover
> >better alternatives and are able to achieve better
> results, more
> >quickly and
> >at lower cost. Largely, it's people who just assume
> BW "must be good
> >because
> >it's from SAP" who buy it, and then find it doesn't
> deliver. Of
> >course, that
> >same group probably don't realize how much better off
> they could have
> >been
> >if they'd bought something else.
> >
> >Because there are so many well-heeled R/3 sites, you'll
> find that all
> >the
> >independent BI vendors have put a lot of effort into
> ensuring that
> >they can
> >work well with R/3. Of the ones on your list, probably
> the only one
> >not to
> >consider at this stage is 9i OLAP, which is still
> somewhat unfinished.
> >It
> >may be good in a year or so, but currently has no apps
> available, and
> >few
> >tools. Consequently, there are currently very few
> deployments of it.
> >
> >Nigel Pendse
> >OLAP Solutions
> >http://www.olapreport.com
> >http://www.survey.com/products/olap2/
> >Message 3 in thread
> >From: DA Morgan (damorgan_at_exesolutions.com)
> >Subject: Re: SAP BW compared to Essbase/SQLServer/Oracle
> as a
> >Enterprise Data Warehouse & OLAP application
> >
> >
> >View this article only
> >Newsgroups: comp.databases.olap,
> comp.databases.oracle.marketplace,
> >comp.databases.oracle.server,
> microsoft.public.sqlserver.datawarehouse
> >Date: 2003-01-11 11:06:13 PST
> >
> >
> >Amanda Jones wrote:
> >
> >> Hello All
> >>
> >> My company as asked me to prepare and evaluate between
> alternative
> >> solutions for data warehousing and one of our major
> source system to
> >> the data warehouse is SAP R/3 but of course we have
> other source
> >> systems apart from SAP.
> >>
> >> I am wondering how good is SAP Business Warehouse - BW
> 30B the latest
> >> version of SAP BW as a solution. I have personally
> talked to quite a
> >> few customers using SAP BW I could not get a good
> feedback about the
> >> product from SAP customers. Some of the customers
> indicated following
> >> issues with SAP BW:
> >> -difficult to use
> >> -went through long implementation cycles
> >> -performance was poor and scalability issues
> >> -maintaining the application was expensive since SAP
> BW and ABAP
> >> consultants are needed for ongoing maintenance.
> >>
> >> Apart from it we figured out SAP BW 30B does not have
> any ETL tool in
> >> it with ETL being 70-80% of the data warehousing effort
> I am bit
> >> sceptical how BW can run without a proper ETL tool. The
> part that
> >> caused us most concern was the language to extract,
> transform and load
> >> in SAP BW was ABAP and ABAP is proprietary which would
> cause us a
> >> major steep cost of ownership even for initial
> implementation to
> >> ongoing maintenance since our SAP project was not easy
> to implement
> >> and ABAP programmers are not available for less that
> $1000/day. So we
> >> would need expensive ABAP programmers to develop
> extractors for SAP
> >> R/3.
> >>
> >> Next configuring SAP BW needed specialist SAP BW
> consultants and we
> >> found out good SAP BW consultants were hard to get and
> getting
> >> consulting help from SAP would cost us - $2000/day.
> Apart from this
> >> the reporting layer in SAP BW was Microsoft Excel and
> any programming
> >> of the reporting was all done in ABAP again and for
> projecting reports
> >> Crystal reports was available but we had to buy a
> seperate license for
> >> Crystal reports and indications was in addition to SAP
> BW we had to
> >> buy a CPU based license for Crystal in addition. Since,
> we have
> >> non-SAP data sources to integrate into the data
> warehouse we were told
> >> we need a ETL tool like Ascential and we are to buy a
> seperate license
> >> to buy Ascential
> >> ETL tool once more CPU based licensing. Apart from
> buying a ETL tool
> >> like Ascential customers who had to build ETL to SAP BW
> have built
> >> part of the ETL process the extraction layer in
> Ascential and the
> >> transform and load part was written in ABAP for
> performance and that
> >> was the only solution for doing transforms and loads
> was to use ABAP
> >> programming.
> >>
> >
> >Read the rest of this message... (161 more lines)
> >
> >Message 4 in thread
> >From: timgale (timgale_at_rogers.com)
> >Subject: Re: SAP BW compared to Essbase/SQLServer/Oracle
> as a
> >Enterprise Data Warehouse & OLAP application
> >
> >
> >View this article only
> >Newsgroups: comp.databases.olap,
> comp.databases.oracle.marketplace,
> >comp.databases.oracle.server,
> microsoft.public.sqlserver.datawarehouse
> >Date: 2003-01-14 14:59:01 PST
> >
> >
> >
> >My background is a little different having been a Cognos
> reseller for
> >the
> >past 6 years. I am lead to believe by the guru's that be
> that Cognos
> >has a
> >few solutions for SAP and/or SAP BW...
> >
> >You can buy and use Cognos "headstarts" for SAP BW which
> will give
> >users all
> >the benefits of the Cognos client against SAP's Data
> Warehouse.
> >However, I
> >believe that the user can not perform OLAP disconnected.
> >
> >You can use Cognos against the info cubes in BW but you
> lose your ad
> >hoc
> >query and drill through capabilities. All you get is
> OLAP. Performance
> >may
> >also be an issue as PowerPlay is connecting through an
> odbc type
> >interface
> >(ODBO?) which is yet another point of failure. Also, you
> then are
> >dependant
> >on both vendors for connectivity through various releases.
> >
> >You can purchase analytical applications for SAP from
> Cognos which
> >uses
> >Cognos Decision Stream for ETL (solves your multiple data
> sources
> >problem)
> >and takes advantage of Decision Stream functionality for
> slowly
> >changing
> >dimensions, conforming dimensions, etc. Also, there is a
> TON of
> >business
> >content for Inventory, Procurement, Sales, AR, GL, and
> AP. It's an end
> >to
> >end Data Warehouse and Business Intelligence offering
> that is quick to
> >implement. Having said all that, I've tried to convince
> many SAP shops
> >of
> >the above and they are extremely loyal to the ERP vendor.
> I'm not sure
> >why.
> >Typically an ERP vendor's sales force is plugged into the
> executive
> >buyers
> >which helps set an ERP agenda despite a favourable Cognos
> IT
> >recommendation.
> >Also note that Cognos was a licensed reseller for ACTA a
> few years ago
> >so
> >presumably they learned a thing or two about SAP data
> sources.
> >
> >Cognos resources are available in most major cities
> either from Cognos
> >or
> >through a systems integrator. Also, Cognos resources are
> available on
> >a
> >contract/permanent basis (at least in Toronto) through
> most agencies
> >or on
> >the open market.
> >
> >Personally, I think Cognos Analytical Applications are
> the best bet
> >but I've
> >been programmed to think that way:-)
> >
> >Hope that information is helpful.
> >
> >Cheers!
> >Tim
> >
> >
> >
> >"Amanda Jones" <amandajonesbc_at_lycos.com> wrote in message
> >news:d42580f.0301110137.5d6bdcca_at_posting.google.com...
> >> Hello All
> >>
> >> My company as asked me to prepare and evaluate between
> alternative
> >> solutions for data warehousing and one of our major
> source system to
> >> the data warehouse is SAP R/3 but of course we have
> other source
> >
> >Read the rest of this message... (194 more lines)
> >
> >Message 5 in thread
> >From: Ihre_Frage (Ihre_Frage_at_yahoo.de)
> >Subject: Re: SAP BW compared to Essbase/SQLServer/Oracle
> as a
> >Enterprise Data Warehouse & OLAP application
> >
> >
> >View this article only
> >Newsgroups: comp.databases.olap,
> comp.databases.oracle.marketplace,
> >comp.databases.oracle.server,
> microsoft.public.sqlserver.datawarehouse
> >Date: 2003-01-16 09:25:31 PST
> >
> >
> >
> >Hello Amanda,
> >
> >having lately had a look on all major multidimensional
> and relational
> >OLAP systems I can just agree to all the statements
> regarding BW:
> >
> >> > -difficult to use
> >> > -went through long implementation cycles
> >> > -performance was poor and scalability issues
> >> > -maintaining the application was expensive since SAP
> BW and ABAP
> >> > consultants are needed for ongoing maintenance.
> >
> >you stated. At the moment there are only three reasons to
> implement
> >SAP BW: 1. Your source data originates from SAP R/3 (at
> least 85 %).
> >2. Your users only know SAP R/3 reporting and are
> not "spoiled" by
> >front ends from Cognos, Hyperion, Oracle, etc. or there
> are mainly (3)
> >users receiving reports delivered by SAP's Business
> Explorer Web
> >Application Builder (which is quite good).
> >
> >Why 1? Because SAP BW offers predefined extractors to
> extract data
> >from R/3. Be careful though since any additionaly created
> field in R/3
> >won't be covered by the extractors and need to be created
> manually. If
> >you won't employ BW there will be no way around an ETL
> tool and
> >consultants who know exactly where and how they get the
> data from
> >(using routines that use the R/3 application by creating
> ABAP code
> >through the ETL tool). The question is where you want to
> put the
> >effort: In data extraction from R/3 or in maintaining
> your warehouse
> >application server, the latter called BW. The options you
> stated with
> >the ETL tools and their analytical apps form one
> scenario. Using the
> >ETL tool, filling a database and employing separate front
> end tools is
> >another. You are also comparing multidimensional and
> relational
> >databases: In my oppinion you should see if you need the
> first or the
> >latter to meet your requirements. This depends largely on
> the data
> >volumes you want to handle. Data volume, #users and your
> required
> >performance influence the decision which system and what
> platform to
> >use. "Neutral" warehouse vendors like SAS, IBM, Microsoft
> or Oracle
> >could do. Some of them even have "ETL" functionality
> built in which is
> >quite good, like SAS or Oracle.
> >
> >Regarding the front ends: There are indeed 3rd party
> front ends
> >available for BW. The problem is just that the ODBO
> implementation is
> >very often different from SAP's (although they have
> certified
> >interfaces). OLAP BAPI gives less hazzles but only two
> vendors are
> >certified. It is not correct though, that programming
> reports in BW
> >needs any ABAP at all. There is a query builder you can
> use to create
> >the report you want (in Excel or for the Web). The use of
> Business
> >Explorer Analyzer is just not as comfortable than using
> Hyperions
> >Excel Add-in or other vendors'.
> >
> >> > RDBMS and the way SAP BW implementes aggregates is
> not like Oracle's
> >
> >Read the rest of this message... (62 more lines)
> >
> >Message 6 in thread
> >From: Andreas Wessner (canttell_at_yahoo.de)
> >Subject: Re: SAP BW compared to Essbase/SQLServer/Oracle
> as a
> >Enterprise Data Warehouse & OLAP application
> >
> >
> >View this article only
> >Newsgroups: comp.databases.olap,
> comp.databases.oracle.marketplace,
> >comp.databases.oracle.server,
> microsoft.public.sqlserver.datawarehouse
> >Date: 2003-01-16 13:59:17 PST
> >
> >
> >
> >Amanda, Tim,
> >
> >> You can buy and use Cognos "headstarts" for SAP BW
> which will give users all
> >> the benefits of the Cognos client against SAP's Data
> Warehouse. However, I
> >> believe that the user can not perform OLAP disconnected.
> >
> >Headstart can be used to connect Impromptu against the
> physical tables
> >of
> >SAP BW. This means just database security, no application
> security.
> >Powerplay facilitates the OLE DB for OLAP (ODBO)
> interface SAP
> >implements.
> >Unfortunately in the past (BW 2.1 to 3.0A) SAP's ODBO
> interface
> >experienced
> >slight "improvements" by SAP resulting in 3rd party
> software (also
> >Powerplay) not working with SAP BW any more. I wouldn't
> therefore
> >recommend
> >patching BW (and you have to apply many patches) without
> the 3rd party
> >vendors' assurance that his software runs with the new
> SAP BW patch.
> >
> >You wonder why SAP customers are loyal? I assume that
> they think
> >stucking
> >with the "market leader" is a good thing - SAP products
> are self
> >running
> >although they are far from optimality. Secondly have you
> ever tried to
> >image
> >what you would tell your boss if you voted for a software
> costing your
> >company a fortune and realizing half a year later that
> you made a
> >mistake?
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >A.
> >Message 7 in thread
> >From: Nigel Pendse (nigelp_at_nospam.compuserve.com)
> >Subject: Re: SAP BW compared to Essbase/SQLServer/Oracle
> as a
> >Enterprise Data Warehouse & OLAP application
> >
> >
> >View this article only
> >Newsgroups: comp.databases.olap,
> comp.databases.oracle.marketplace,
> >comp.databases.oracle.server,
> microsoft.public.sqlserver.datawarehouse
> >Date: 2003-01-16 14:31:54 PST
> >
> >
> >"Andreas Wessner" <canttell_at_yahoo.de> wrote in message
> >news:b079vj$mgcun$2_at_ID-25239.news.dfncis.de...
> >> You wonder why SAP customers are loyal? I assume that
> they think stucking
> >> with the "market leader" is a good thing - SAP products
> are self running
> >> although they are far from optimality. Secondly have
> you ever tried to image
> >> what you would tell your boss if you voted for a
> software costing your
> >> company a fortune and realizing half a year later that
> you made a mistake?
> >
> >Indeed so, but many sites assume that SAP BW must, by
> definition, be
> >better
> >integrated with R/3 than third party products are, which
> is not
> >necessarily
> >true. There's also a very long history of ERP vendors (or
> ledger
> >vendors, as
> >they used to be called) doing a poor job with end-user
> business
> >applications. Companies like Hyperion, Cognos, Business
> Objects,
> >Comshare,
> >etc have long derived a significant part of their
> business from
> >providing
> >the flexible analysis and reporting that was promised but
> not
> >delivered by
> >the supplier of the ledgers. Oracle tried to overcome
> this by buying
> >the
> >Express business from IRI, and marketing OFA as the
> standard front-end
> >for
> >Oracle Financials, but this product has been fading.
> >
> >But, as you say, once a company has spent tens of
> millions to
> >implement SAP,
> >it's very hard for them to accept that they then need to
> buy a third
> >party
> >product from a smaller vendor to make the most of it.
> >
> >Nigel Pendse
> >OLAP Solutions
> >http://www.olapreport.com
> >.
> >
Received on Fri Feb 20 2004 - 21:19:20 CST