Re: Oracle Certification question

First off, Daniel, let's not compare brain surgery to database administration. I'm sure we all think highly of our skills but your examples comparing technical certification to life and death situations are neither fair nor appropriate.

Given that, I know you're just trying to make your point. However I think your own example not only confuses the issues involved, it also undermines your own point. While Justin's post compares 2 types of accreditation, a college degree vs. a professional certificate, given the absence of experience, your reply compares credentials with experience. Nowhere in Justin's post do I see anything that implies certification without experience should be considered just a good as having both while your post seems to be focused on refuting such an assertion.

And now that I've said that I think I know why your point doesn't refute the value of certification as opposed to a college degree... you're not actually answering Justin's "what's the difference" question, as that question pertains to different types of credentialing (degree vs. tech. certification). Your reply focuses on the inadequacy of education/credentials vs. the value of experience... not a necessarily invalid point, but not a response to the question in Justin's post.

I'd like to point out that my original post never included anything about opinions on formal education versus technical training nor on the value of education vs. experience. I simply wanted to find out what the reality seems to be in the market place regarding the value placed on the OCP by hiring managers and if that value is negated, lessened or increased by the level of the candidate's experience. The last thing I wanted was to launch a debate on the value of having a college degree vs. anything else...

From your initial reply to my post I detected a degree of defensiveness. The phrase "waving an OCP in front of a hiring manager" doesn't exactly intone professionalism on the part of the applicant. What I'm confused about, especially since you are an educator, is why you think the OCP could not possibly help you determine if "the person [can] do the job ... and do it well"? Under your reasoning, how would anyone ever gain the experienced needed for you to hire them? Maybe your candidate can't do the job right now, but has s/he proved that s/he has the potential to do it well as s/he gains experience? Isn't an educational credential (be it a college degree or a certification) a primary indicator of such potential, albeit not a foolproof nor the only one? I wasn't going to respond to your first reply because, defensiveness aside, you answered the question: you would not consider OCP in hiring. Fine. I may disagree with your reasoning for answering that way, but it's your opinion and I'm assuming you've been in the position of interviewing candidates (if not, then I would disregard your opinions for the purpose of my inquiry here). But Justin's post seems to have incited you to elaborate in ways that confuse the issues.

"Daniel A. Morgan" <damorgan_at_exesolutions.com> wrote in message news:3C552AB9.13042586_at_exesolutions.com...
> I'll answer your "what's the difference" question.
>
> Would you hire a neurosurgeon who had done the classroom work but had not
done
> an internship under the supervision of another surgeon?
>
> Would you hire an attorney to represent you on a murder case if he had
just
> passed the bar but had no experience in court?
>
> I don't think so.
>
> But what if you had someone with no law school who passed the bar and had
> practiced law for 20 years including arguing successfully before your
state
> Supreme Court?
>
> I think you get my point. I teach at a University. Obviously I value
education
> and classrooms. All I'm saying is that it is not sufficient anymore than
it
> would be in the above examples.
>
> Daniel Morgan
>
>
>
>
> Justin wrote:
>
> > Hi, Jason,
> >
> > I'm kind of in the same situation as you do, I don't know your
> > background, but as a programmer for over 6 years, interviewed people to
fill
> > programmer position, I can tell you if choose between someone with no
> > programming experience, no certification and no experience with
> > certification, we (as least I) choose the latter.
> > The deal is, if you want to break in a career, with no experience, a
> > certification is your only hope.
> > Don't expect too much money in your first year or two, just gather
> > experience.
> > Some people here like Daniel, dismiss the idea of certification
totally,
> > I don't agree. A certification, in my opion, is like a BS degree in CS,
many
> > companies hire new graduates with CS degree only. What's the difference
> > between sitting in a classroom for four years, passing 20 tests,
including
> > American History and pass 4 or 5 tests designed to a very specific goal.
> > Besides, something you memorized from a book on how to set the size
of
> > SGA is no difference from you figure it out yourself on the job, assume
the
> > book is a good one.
> > Just don't think certification is a permit to print money. You still
have
> > a few years to struggle after the certification and your first, second
and
> > third DBA jobs.
> > Good luck and don't hesitate to invest in your future.
> >
> > Justin
> >
> > "Jason" <foucault4_at_attbi.com> wrote in message
> > news:8jp48.9811$b14.21494_at_rwcrnsc54...
> > > hi everyone...
> > > if it's inappropriate to post this here, please accept my apology and
let
> > me
> > > know...
> > >
> > > i was wondering what you all think about Oracle Certification. i just
> > > passed the first test in the DBA track and i'm wondering if, at $125 a
> > shot,
> > > it is going to be worth it to take the rest. i'm sure there are a lot
of
> > > variables in answering this, but basically what i'm looking for is
your
> > > opinion as to whether someone with X number of years of hands-on job
> > > experience with Oracle AND the OCP certificate is a more desirable job
> > > candidate or can expect to command a higher salary than someone with
the
> > > same experience but no certification? i can see where someone without
any
> > > experience or very little would be greatly benefited by having a paper
> > that
> > > says they know what they're talking about, but i would suspect that
this
> > > advantage would diminish with experience. agree? disagree?
> > >
> > > also, any other opinions you have on the testing would be welcome.
for
> > > instance, best guess on how many Oracle DBA's in 10 are certified?
> > opinions
> > > on the classes... instructor-led vs. self-paced CDs?
> > >
> > > thanks...
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
Received on Mon Jan 28 2002 - 19:13:52 CST