Return-Path: X-Original-To: oracle-l@orafaq.com Delivered-To: oracle-l@orafaq.com Received: from turing.freelists.org (turing.freelists.org [206.53.239.180]) by malta2546.startdedicated.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0A6EC10030AF3E for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 11:59:26 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turing.freelists.org (Avenir Technologies Mail Multiplex) with ESMTP id 61BC9248AA; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 05:58:27 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=freelists.org; s=turing; t=1548759507; bh=AyFjA0tVZSJUrl6oJIUN4211OXEvI2u88sawg1Mgt8k=; h=References:In-Reply-To:From:Date:Subject:To:Cc:Reply-To:List-help: List-unsubscribe:List-Id:List-subscribe:List-owner:List-post: List-archive; b=YJJT6X/TmEzd1dCwnRROaN4fx1ojIAdqx17g2KDyH8uwezqCz/Imou38FWAj4EeQH 6P/fKQWztgkyMjHpsAGtalzsE4mAm6zRufs9cgJllVoF98qeMfXik6s6Eyccs/lgX4 UUzpJ1DiL+oxrqPTZXnk77MHEPk8ZQ85amYWIu6E= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at turing.freelists.org Received: from turing.freelists.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (turing.freelists.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SIf9mVH_DjFo; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 05:58:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from turing.freelists.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turing.freelists.org (Avenir Technologies Mail Multiplex) with ESMTP id 3B8962411C; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 05:58:14 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=freelists.org; s=turing; t=1548759506; bh=AyFjA0tVZSJUrl6oJIUN4211OXEvI2u88sawg1Mgt8k=; h=References:In-Reply-To:From:Date:Subject:To:Cc:Reply-To:List-help: List-unsubscribe:List-Id:List-subscribe:List-owner:List-post: List-archive; b=SQIMkpn7xbiiKrNBoQJ1k7DMXK49QsqPnu+xOBhcW9JiWab4utMgCT95ooIokkrXE HsDdx5zjZiD/ARyKFUAlXsoh0utDFWNLn3FEfxEINPT7e86aGcJo0vq7sySbcvgVSo RTpctaC7SCethpSKtXImYf7QBFSGR3lorL9Yr36g= Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list oracle-l); Tue, 29 Jan 2019 05:56:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turing.freelists.org (Avenir Technologies Mail Multiplex) with ESMTP id 4017B25892 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 05:56:52 -0500 (EST) Authentication-Results: turing.freelists.org; dkim=pass reason="2048-bit key; unprotected key" header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b=W/TokzBz; dkim-adsp=pass; dkim-atps=neutral Received: from turing.freelists.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (turing.freelists.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y7PoITZ31VNt for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 05:56:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-lf1-f44.google.com (mail-lf1-f44.google.com [209.85.167.44]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by turing.freelists.org (Avenir Technologies Mail Multiplex) with ESMTPS id BCD57250D9 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 05:56:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-lf1-f44.google.com with SMTP id e26so14282010lfc.2 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 02:56:51 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=NNml5cbHJn7EVaTEGDXtcGVWhLqtMGouJv6IfGKf6Zo=; b=V47LNVFIWiNKnGl8todRG74dNWOR79nGkp6HqIoz2wX8/IvAVXmZR5/lHeDSkmqZVW 4x4JL6rCh2YNxpB9GCoNZOX7x8IbSAyevx+0htGlrm2iXMcvnRiRIq7NIpd0Jikcu9hd JZKSFPc0VHIazf+lVe8x8Z1hPQ9uIhlEr7oJmvWp30Sek+MMel8+GH/vGTc+QE2w8eoj B/5IVwMNtICWDOR9YRKAl8EhdBRh2MvVrbmqty16MKeI7VphMrGosQeItFlD3x2i/vFe QIcmGrBgBGvS+KUkob8JcwYH8vj4TuCwbVsPC5NjSM9MPxgLSvvL9Di4LOaClhooSVUB IaDA== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukdXcITdNBzqeEhfc00hF0+Kpdf1HD1R4VTfKMhSij3wXSwX+C/h sZko45KLzM5vuEB2urfh4dibfupmXO8Z16G8rA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN7pvIWvELf/GXMfupeUhOzPESDlRIfEQ8JmNAI+mKttxSginudRCtajC/i+SFvNYKHJueKKrMZdPQoW3Hqctpc= X-Received: by 2002:a19:4dd0:: with SMTP id a199mr20649480lfb.42.1548759410056; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 02:56:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <06bd01d4b72e$2f843880$8e8ca980$@comcast.net> <06d301d4b72e$ce2fba40$6a8f2ec0$@comcast.net> <073b01d4b747$211ff310$635fd930$@comcast.net> <75205_1548743595_5C4FF3AB_75205_431_1_94d9eb51dd9643b7a7cd018611233cfb@vontobel.com> In-Reply-To: <75205_1548743595_5C4FF3AB_75205_431_1_94d9eb51dd9643b7a7cd018611233cfb@vontobel.com> From: John Thomas Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 10:56:37 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: DBA to Developer ratio To: Noveljic Nenad Cc: Dimensional DBA , Jeff Chirco , oracle-l-freelist Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007ab230058096a6d5" X-archive-position: 73157 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: oracle-l-bounce@freelists.org Errors-to: oracle-l-bounce@freelists.org X-original-sender: jt2354@gmail.com Precedence: normal Reply-To: jt2354@gmail.com List-help: List-unsubscribe: List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0 List-Id: oracle-l X-List-ID: oracle-l List-subscribe: List-owner: List-post: List-archive: X-list: oracle-l --0000000000007ab230058096a6d5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I think it's true to say "it depends". In addition to the points made above, important factors are whether there is a separate development and production support team and whether the operation is 16x7, 24x7. For example, two DBAs might be a viable team for an 8x5 operation, but for 24x7 you might need a minimum of six in three shifts... I don't think there's any magic "right answer". The amount of work created for DBAs by developers also depends on the developers level of experience of the database, whether you're using "SmartDB" techniques, etc... It depends. Regards John Thomas On Tue, 29 Jan 2019, 06:34 Noveljic Nenad We have both on-site development and third party applications on our site. > Therefore, it's somewhat difficult to extract the "developers per dba" > metric. > > > > But I can give you the "number of databases/dba" instead: my team > consisting of 6.5 full time employees is responsible for 200 Oracle and 500 > MS SQL Server databases including a couple of Reporting and Analysis > Services instances. > > > > I think you've already identified a part of the solution ("We are working > on getting the developers to be less depended"). > > > > That being said, we've automated almost all recurring tasks, such as > database creation, snapshot/rollback, upgrade/patching, cloning, Oracle > software installation etc. On top of that we built a self-service interface > for the application people, so that they don't need us for tasks like > fallback, cloning, database upgrades and so on. By doing so, not only did > we massively improve agility, scalability and overall customer > satisfaction, but also our jobs became much more fulfilling by replacing > toxic repetitive toil with more challenging tasks. > > > > Good luck! > > > > Nenad > > > > http://nenadnoveljic.com/blog/ > > > > > > > > *From:* oracle-l-bounce@freelists.org *On > Behalf Of *dimensional.dba@comcast.net > *Sent:* Montag, 28. Januar 2019 21:22 > *To:* backseatdba@gmail.com > *Cc:* 'oracle-l-freelist' > *Subject:* RE: DBA to Developer ratio > > > > For your own projects you need to work with your project managers to get > your projects on the table too. > > Items to maintain, monitor, upgrade systems are just as important as some > of the development work. > > > > *From:* oracle-l-bounce@freelists.org *On > Behalf Of *Jeff Chirco > *Sent:* Monday, January 28, 2019 10:11 AM > *To:* Dimensional DBA > *Cc:* oracle-l-freelist > *Subject:* Re: DBA to Developer ratio > > > > Thank for your input. We keep up with their needs (for the most part) but > our own projects lag behind big time. We are working on getting the > developers to be less depended but there is always things and we like being > in the know of what is going on. > > > > On Mon, Jan 28, 2019 at 9:27 AM wrote: > > Those numbers are based off of the developers who are tied to a database > in some fashion. The numbers are much higher when you look at all > developers on the teams you may support who do no development against a > database. > > > > > > *From:* oracle-l-bounce@freelists.org *On > Behalf Of *dimensional.dba@comcast.net > *Sent:* Monday, January 28, 2019 9:23 AM > *To:* backseatdba@gmail.com; 'oracle-l-freelist' > *Subject:* RE: DBA to Developer ratio > > > > As you said it really depends. > > In the consulting world for contracts I have seen 4 to 1, when > calculating DBA to Developers. > > In the commercial world I have seen upwards of 75 developers to 1 DBA. And > a low of about 6 Developers to 1 DBA. > > Really depends on how much help the Developers need or how much control of > them you need. > > Can you keep up with the project time lines based on your ratio and > their/your needs. > > > > > > > > *From:* oracle-l-bounce@freelists.org *On > Behalf Of *Jeff Chirco > *Sent:* Monday, January 28, 2019 9:12 AM > *To:* oracle-l-freelist > *Subject:* DBA to Developer ratio > > > > I know this is not an exact science and every company is different and a > lot of factors goes into this. But just curious how many DBA's you have > compared to how many developers? We do mostly custom development of many > applications for the company. We have 20 developers that do .Net, Web, > Cobol, VB, and just starting APEX. They all also do their own PL/SQL, which > we review. There is 2 of us as DBA's who also do development. We support > 5 Oracle databases and a bunch of MSQL databases but those are all third > party systems. > > > > Is there a common or magic number? > > > > > > Jeff > > ____________________________________________________ > > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. > > Bitte denken Sie an die Umwelt, bevor Sie dieses E-Mail drucken. > > > Important Notice > This message is intended only for the individual named. It may contain > confidential or privileged information. If you are not the named addressee > you should in particular not disseminate, distribute, modify or copy this > e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, if you have > received this message by mistake and delete it from your system. > Without prejudice to any contractual agreements between you and us which > shall prevail in any case, we take it as your authorization to correspond > with you by e-mail if you send us messages by e-mail. However, we reserve > the right not to execute orders and instructions transmitted by e-mail at > any time and without further explanation. > E-mail transmission may not be secure or error-free as information could > be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete. Also > processing of incoming e-mails cannot be guaranteed. All liability of > Vontobel Holding Ltd. and any of its affiliates (hereinafter collectively > referred to as "Vontobel Group") for any damages resulting from e-mail use > is excluded. You are advised that urgent and time sensitive messages should > not be sent by e-mail and if verification is required please request a > printed version. Please note that all e-mail communications to and from the > Vontobel Group are subject to electronic storage and review by Vontobel > Group. Unless stated to the contrary and without prejudice to any > contractual agreements between you and Vontobel Group which shall prevail > in any case, e-mail-communication is for informational purposes only and is > not intended as an offer or solicitation for the purchase or sale of any > financial instrument or as an official confirmation of any transaction. > The legal basis for the processing of your personal data is the legitimate > interest to develop a commercial relationship with you, as well as your > consent to forward you commercial communications. You can exercise, at any > time and under the terms established under current regulation, your rights. > If you prefer not to receive any further communications, please contact > your client relationship manager if you are a client of Vontobel Group or > notify the sender. Please note for an exact reference to the affected group > entity the corporate e-mail signature. For further information about data > privacy at Vontobel Group please consult www.vontobel.com. > --0000000000007ab230058096a6d5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think it's true to say "it depends".

In addition to the points made abo= ve, important factors are whether there is a separate development and produ= ction support team and whether the operation is 16x7, 24x7. For example, tw= o DBAs might be a viable team for an 8x5 operation, but for 24x7 you might = need a minimum of six in three shifts...

<= div dir=3D"auto">I don't think there's any magic "right answer= ". The amount of work created for DBAs by developers also depends on t= he developers level of experience of the database, whether you're using= "SmartDB" techniques, etc... It depends.
=
Regards

John Thomas

On Tue, 29 Jan 2019, 06:34 Noveljic Nenad <nenad.noveljic@vontobel.com wrote:
=

We have both on-site developmen= t and third party applications on our site. Therefore, it's somewhat di= fficult to extract the "developers per dba" metric.

=C2=A0

But I can give you the "nu= mber of databases/dba" instead: my team consisting of 6.5 full time em= ployees is responsible for 200 Oracle and 500 MS SQL Server databases inclu= ding a couple of Reporting and Analysis Services instances.

=C2=A0

I think you've already iden= tified a part of the solution ("We are working on getting the develope= rs to be less depended").

=C2=A0

That being said, we've auto= mated almost all recurring tasks, such as database creation, snapshot/rollb= ack, upgrade/patching, cloning, Oracle software installation etc. On top of= that we built a self-service interface for the application people, so that they don't need us for tasks like = fallback, cloning, database upgrades and so on. By doing so, not only did w= e massively improve agility, scalability and overall customer satisfaction,= but also our jobs became much more fulfilling by replacing toxic repetitive toil with more challenging tasks.=

=C2=A0

Good luck!=

=C2=A0

Nenad

=C2=A0

http://nenadnoveljic.com/b= log/

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: oracle-l-bounce@freelists.org <ora= cle-l-bounce@freelists.org> On Behalf Of dimensional.dba@comcast.net
Sent: Montag, 28. Januar 2019 21:22
To: backseatdba@gmail.com
Cc: 'oracle-l-freelist' <oracle-l@freelists.org&g= t;
Subject: RE: DBA to Developer ratio

=C2=A0

For your own projects you need = to work with your project managers to get your projects on the table too.

Items to maintain, monitor, upg= rade systems are just as important as some of the development work.<= u>

=C2=A0

From: oracle-l-bounce@freelists.org <oracle-l-bounce@freelists.= org> On Behalf Of Jeff Chirco
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2019 10:11 AM
To: Dimensional DBA <dimensional.dba@comcast.net>=
Cc: oracle-l-freelist <oracle-l@freelists.org>
Subject: Re: DBA to Developer ratio

=C2=A0

Thank for your input. We keep u= p with their needs (for the most part) but our own projects lag behind big = time. We are working on getting the developers to be less depended but ther= e is always things and we like being in the know of what is going on.

=C2=A0

On Mon, Jan 28, 2019 at 9:27 AM= <dimensional.dba@comcast.net> wrote:

Those numbers are based off of = the developers who are tied to a database in some fashion. The numbers are = much higher when you look at all developers on the teams you may support who do no development against a database.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: oracle-l-bounce@freelists.org <oracle-l-bounce= @freelists.org> On Behalf Of dimensional.dba@comcast.net
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2019 9:23 AM
To: backseatdba@gmail.com; 'oracle-l-freelist' <= oracle-l@freelists.org>
Subject: RE: DBA to Developer ratio

=C2=A0

As you said it really depends.<= u>

In the consulting world for con= tracts =C2=A0I have seen 4 to 1, when calculating DBA to Developers.=

In the commercial world I have = seen upwards of 75 developers to 1 DBA. And a low of about 6 Developers to = 1 DBA.

Really depends on how much help= the Developers need or how much control of them you need.

Can you keep up with the projec= t time lines based on your ratio and their/your needs.=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: oracle-l-bounce@freelists.org <oracle-l-bounce= @freelists.org> On Behalf Of Jeff Chirco
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2019 9:12 AM
To: oracle-l-freelist <oracle-l@freelists.org>
Subject: DBA to Developer ratio

=C2=A0

I know this is not an exact sci= ence and every company is different and a lot of factors goes into this. Bu= t just curious how many DBA's you have compared to how many developers?=C2=A0 We do mostly custom development of many application= s for the company.=C2=A0 We have 20 developers that do .Net, Web, Cobol, VB= , and just starting APEX. They all also do their own PL/SQL, which we revie= w.=C2=A0 There is 2 of us as DBA's who also do development.=C2=A0 We support 5 Oracle databases and a bunch of MSQL datab= ases but those are all third party systems.

=C2=A0

Is there a common or magic numb= er?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Jeff

_________= ___________________________________________

Please co= nsider the environment before printing this e-mail.

Bitte denken Sie an die = Umwelt, bevor Sie dieses E-Mail drucken.=


Important Notice
This message is intended only for the individual named. It may contain conf= idential or privileged information. If you are not the named addressee you = should in particular not disseminate, distribute, modify or copy this e-mai= l. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail, if you have received thi= s message by mistake and delete it from your system.
Without prejudice to any contractual agreements between you and us which sh= all prevail in any case, we take it as your authorization to correspond wit= h you by e-mail if you send us messages by e-mail. However, we reserve the = right not to execute orders and instructions transmitted by e-mail at any t= ime and without further explanation.
E-mail transmission may not be secure or error-free as information could be= intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete. Also p= rocessing of incoming e-mails cannot be guaranteed. All liability of Vontob= el Holding Ltd. and any of its affiliates (hereinafter collectively referre= d to as "Vontobel Group") for any damages resulting from e-mail u= se is excluded. You are advised that urgent and time sensitive messages sho= uld not be sent by e-mail and if verification is required please request a = printed version. Please note that all e-mail communications to and from the Vontobel Group a= re subject to electronic storage and review by Vontobel Group. Unless state= d to the contrary and without prejudice to any contractual agreements betwe= en you and Vontobel Group which shall prevail in any case, e-mail-communica= tion is for informational purposes only and is not intended as an offer or = solicitation for the purchase or sale of any financial instrument or as an = official confirmation of any transaction.
The legal basis for the processing of your personal data is the legitimate = interest to develop a commercial relationship with you, as well as your con= sent to forward you commercial communications. You can exercise, at any tim= e and under the terms established under current regulation, your rights. If= you prefer not to receive any further communications, please contact your = client relationship manager if you are a client of Vontobel Group or notify= the sender. Please note for an exact reference to the affected group entity the corpora= te e-mail signature. For further information about data privacy at Vontobel Group please consult= = www.vontobel.com.

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