Message-Id: <25937.338097@fatcity.com> From: "AK" Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:28:37 -0700 Subject: Re: RMAN & SQL Backtrack This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_065B_01C34B85.04602810 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Messagewhy not backup to disk and then transfer to tape . -ak ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Arup Nanda=20 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:24 AM Subject: Re: RMAN & SQL Backtrack Wow! Heady!! It's mighty nice of you to include my name in this illustrious list, = Mladen; but I don't consider myself to be in the same league :) Better = yet, count yourself in there. Talking about the business at hand - you are absolutely right; one of = the "myths" (of the several) is that RMAN is free. It is, as long as you = don't put it on tape. Once you bring tape to the picture, you are = talking money, sometimes big money (as in Tivoli), sometimes small (as = in BrightStor). However, the solution to usedisk could still be relevant = and applicable in some cases, especially in small companies.=20 Besides the Freeman book, I would also suggest another one - Oracle = RMAN Pocket Reference by Darl Kuhn and Scott Schulze, ISBN = 0-596-00233-5. It predates the Freeman book and I learned my ropes from = it. It's a pocket reference; but it's truly one of those things where = size belies the content. Learning curve could be formidable. Remember you need to learn a new = "language", and it is arcane. When youventure into territories of tuning = the tape buffers, etc, the process could be quite involved. I just = finished setting up and tuning a RMAN setup for a 2 TB database using = IBM Tivoli Storage Manager agent and the details of the process using = the IBM Red Books was nightmarish! Regards, Arup Nanda ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Gogala, Mladen=20 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 11:39 AM Subject: RE: RMAN & SQL Backtrack I don't have any experience with SQL*Backtrack and I do have some = experience with RMAN. Here are my comments: a) RMAN is reliable. Once you write the backup scripts, they are = executed by operations and there no surprises. In order to rely on those scripts, one = needs to test them, especially the recovery part. b) RMAN needs a 3rd party backup software to run. Things like = OmniBackup, Tivoli, Legato or SyncSort can be rather expensive. RMAN doesn't write to tapes = itself. RMAN delegates a backup software contacted through the routines from libobk.so = (or libobk.dll or libobk.sl) to do its writing. To get the "libobk.so" from you backup software = vendor of choice, you generally=20 have to write a check. That means that RMAN is NOT free. c) Before version 9, RMAN was arcane and hard to learn. Thanks to = Robert Freeman, it is no=20 longer so. You can learn how to configure and use RMAN and you = can find a decent book to learn RMAN from. It's not very hard and it's fairly logical. = One reading of the books suffices=20 for a good general understanding. d) Quality of the software: RMAN leaves a lot to be desired. Its = biggest drawback is the fact that it doesn't do any coordination with the underlying backup = catalog. In other words, you can happily declare backup obsolete in RMAN and Legato will not know = anything about it and vice versa. You can even delete backup in Legato and reuse the tape while = RMAN knows nothing about it. On the other hand, RMAN, in contrast to all other methods, does = not put tablespaces into the backup mode, thus generating floods of redo archives. RMAN = doesn't backup data blocks that=20 have never been used ("behind the watermark blocks"), which is = great if you have a fresh new datafile which was added to the tablespace just in case = something might run out of space. e) Personnel. Despite the certification process, it is not always = easy to find a trained personnel which knows how to use it and how to recover the database. I = consider the ability to recover the database a basis for someone to call himself/herself a DBA. = You would be surprised how many people which claim that title do not know how to recover = the database. Even smaller number=20 knows how to use RMAN. f) I would suggest Jared Still, Cary Millsap, Rachel Carmichael, = Jonathan Lewis, Wolfgang Breitling,=20 Steve Adams, Gaja V., Arup Nanda, Kirti Deshpande and Anjo Kolk = to start the Oracle List certification process. I would trust that one more then the OCP. I apologize = to anyone who I might have forgotten. Mladen Gogala=20 Oracle DBA=20 Phone:(203) 459-6855=20 Email:mgogala@oxhp.com=20 -----Original Message----- From: Smith, Ron L. [mailto:rlsmith@kmg.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:59 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RMAN & SQL Backtrack We have been using SQL Backtrack for backup and recovery for about = 6 years now. We are being pressured to start using RMAN because it is = free. Makes sense but I am wondering about reliability, complexity, = learning curve, etc... Has anyone had experience with both products or anyone new to RMAN = that can give me an idea of what to expect? Thanks! Ron If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail message, any = use, distribution or copying of the message is prohibited. Please let me = know immediately by return e-mail if you have received this message by = mistake, then delete the e-mail message. Thank you. ------=_NextPart_000_065B_01C34B85.04602810 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
why not backup to disk and then = transfer to tape=20 .
 
-ak
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Arup = Nanda=20
To: Multiple recipients of list = ORACLE-L=20
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 = 10:24=20 AM
Subject: Re: RMAN & SQL=20 Backtrack

Wow! Heady!!
 
It's mighty nice of you to include my = name in=20 this illustrious list, Mladen; but I don't consider myself = to be in=20 the same league :) Better yet, count yourself in = there.
 
Talking about the business at hand - = you are=20 absolutely right; one of the "myths" (of the several) is that RMAN is = free. It=20 is, as long as you don't put it on tape. Once you bring tape to the = picture,=20 you are talking money, sometimes big money (as in Tivoli), sometimes = small (as=20 in BrightStor). However, the solution to usedisk could still be = relevant and=20 applicable in some cases, especially in small companies.
 
Besides the Freeman book, I would = also suggest=20 another one - Oracle RMAN Pocket Reference by Darl Kuhn and Scott = Schulze,=20 ISBN 0-596-00233-5. It predates the Freeman book and I learned my = ropes from=20 it. It's a pocket reference; but it's truly one of those things where = size=20 belies the content.
 
Learning curve could be formidable. = Remember you=20 need to learn a new "language", and it is arcane. When youventure into = territories of tuning the tape buffers, etc, the process could be = quite=20 involved. I just finished setting up and tuning a RMAN setup for a 2 = TB=20 database using IBM Tivoli Storage Manager agent and the details of the = process=20 using the IBM Red Books was nightmarish!
 
Regards,
 
Arup Nanda
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Gogala, = Mladen=20
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, = 2003 11:39=20 AM
Subject: RE: RMAN & SQL=20 Backtrack

I=20 don't have any experience with SQL*Backtrack and I do have some = experience
with RMAN. Here are my=20 comments:
a)=20 RMAN is reliable. Once you write the backup scripts, they are = executed by=20 operations
    and there no = surprises. In order=20 to rely on those scripts, one needs to test them,=20 especially
    the recovery=20 part.
b)=20 RMAN needs a 3rd party backup software to run. Things like = OmniBackup,=20 Tivoli, Legato or
    SyncSort can be rather = expensive. RMAN doesn't write to tapes itself. RMAN delegates=20 a
    backup software = contacted=20 through the routines from libobk.so (or libobk.dll or libobk.sl)=20 to
    do its writing. To get = the=20 "libobk.so" from you backup software vendor of choice, you generally =
    have to write a check. = That=20 means that RMAN is NOT free.
c)=20 Before version 9, RMAN was arcane and hard to learn. Thanks to = Robert=20 Freeman, it is no
    longer so. You can = learn how to=20 configure and use RMAN and you can find a decent = book
    to learn RMAN from. = It's not=20 very hard and it's fairly logical. One reading of the books suffices =
    for a good general=20 understanding.
d)=20 Quality of the software: RMAN leaves a lot to be desired. Its = biggest=20 drawback is the fact that
    it doesn't do any = coordination=20 with the underlying backup catalog. In other words, you can=20 happily
    declare backup = obsolete in RMAN=20 and Legato will not know anything about it and vice=20 versa.
    You can even delete = backup in=20 Legato and reuse  the tape while RMAN knows nothing about=20 it.
     On the other = hand, RMAN,=20 in contrast to all other methods, does not put tablespaces into=20 the
     backup mode, = thus=20 generating floods of redo archives. RMAN doesn't backup data blocks = that=20
     have never been = used=20 ("behind the watermark blocks"), which is great if you have a fresh=20 new
     datafile which = was added=20 to the tablespace just in case something might  run out of=20 space.
e)  Personnel. Despite the = certification=20 process, it is not always easy to find a trained=20 personnel
     which knows how = to use it=20 and how  to recover the database. I consider the ability to=20 recover
     the database a = basis for=20 someone to call himself/herself a DBA. You would be surprised=20 how
     many people = which claim=20 that title do not know how to recover the database. Even smaller = number=20
     knows how to use = RMAN.
f)   I would suggest Jared = Still, Cary=20 Millsap, Rachel Carmichael, Jonathan Lewis, Wolfgang Breitling,=20
    Steve Adams, Gaja V., = Arup=20 Nanda, Kirti Deshpande and  Anjo Kolk to start = the Oracle=20 List certification
    process. = I would trust=20 that one more then the OCP. I apologize to = anyone who=20 I might have forgotten.
 
 

Mladen Gogala
Oracle DBA
Phone:(203)=20 459-6855
Email:mgogala@oxhp.com=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Smith, Ron L.=20 [mailto:rlsmith@kmg.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 = 10:59=20 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list = ORACLE-L
Subject:=20 RMAN & SQL Backtrack

We have been=20 using SQL Backtrack for backup and recovery for about 6 years = now.  We are being pressured to start using RMAN because it = is=20 free.  Makes sense but I am wondering about reliability, = complexity,=20 learning curve, etc...
 
Has anyone had=20 experience with both products or anyone new to RMAN that can give = me an=20 idea of what to expect?
 
Thanks!
 
Ron

If you are not the intended =