Return-Path: Received: from ensim.rackshack.net (root@localhost) by orafaq.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h1ON6Bv09614 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 17:06:11 -0600 X-ClientAddr: 209.68.248.164 Received: from newsfeed.cts.com (newsfeed.cts.com [209.68.248.164]) by ensim.rackshack.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h1ON69J09592 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 17:06:09 -0600 Received: from fatcity.UUCP (uucp@localhost) by newsfeed.cts.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with UUCP id LAA31356; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 11:50:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by fatcity.com (26-Feb-2001/v1.0g-b72/bab) via UUCP id 00557289; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 11:30:26 -0800 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 11:30:26 -0800 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L X-Comment: Oracle RDBMS Community Forum X-Sender: "Bowes, Chris" Sender: root@fatcity.com Reply-To: ORACLE-L@fatcity.com Errors-To: ML-ERRORS@fatcity.com From: "Bowes, Chris" Subject: RE: Teradata baned from IOUG??? Organization: Fat City Network Services, San Diego, California X-ListServer: v1.0g, build 72; ListGuru (c) 1996-2001 Bruce A. Bergman Precedence: bulk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C2DC3B.35960300" ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2DC3B.35960300 Content-Type: text/plain Jonathan, This is the forum for critical analysis. No question about it. Someone publishes stuff here and there are tons of people like Rachel, yourself and Robert who will disagree and say why. I have heard several critiques of books, training classes, papers and seminars on this list, and look at the discussion the top 10 do and don't list is receiving. I don't think anyone has a problem with open honest discussion so long as claims are backed up and you're not calling the person names (which I know you weren't). And even if someone did go to name calling, Jared will take care of them. He's pretty good about that. No one should think that they should not be allowed to disagree with anything said on this forum, so long as they have the stat/proof/test/etc to back it up. So if you (or anyone else) have a problem with Rich's work and can prove it is incorrect and/or dangerous, then say so and put out your reasons. You may save someone from a mistake that will cost them. Let those who agree with Rich respond with their say and hash it out, here on the list. That is, in it's essence, what this list is about. --Chris -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 11:50 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Robert, I agree, personal attacks are inappropriate and fairly pointless. On the other hand, I do sympathise with the people who are irritated by the divergence between Rich Niemiec's claims to be one of the best, and the poor, even dangerous, work that he publishes. Please note, I do not believe he is trying to mislead his readers into dangerous or unsuitable areas, but the combination of his claims to expertise, past reputation, and generally sketchy comments can easily persuade individuals to 'try option X' simply because Rich has written a few lines which say "option X exists and this is an example from the manuals". The question has to be asked, therefore, where is the forum for questioning the material published by a "guru" and if there is one, how do you avoid crossing the line between criticising the material and criticising the person ? Personally, I don't mind if Rich thinks he's one of the best in the world; but I'd far rather see him publish a lower quantity and higher quality - his present output does not do his reputation credit. Regards Jonathan Lewis http://www.jlcomp.demon.co.uk Coming soon one-day tutorials: Cost Based Optimisation Trouble-shooting and Tuning Indexing Strategies (see http://www.jlcomp.demon.co.uk/tutorial.html ) ____UK_______March 19th ____USA_(FL)_May 2nd Next Seminar dates: (see http://www.jlcomp.demon.co.uk/seminar.html ) ____USA_(CA, TX)_August The Co-operative Oracle Users' FAQ http://www.jlcomp.demon.co.uk/faq/ind_faq.html Freeman Robert - IL wrote: > I must admit that I'm a bit tired of the Rich/TUSC bashing here. I've > written and canned two rather terse responses to personal attacks > against Rich. If you want to disagree with his position on BHR, go for > it, I have no problem with that. In fact, I'm not sure I *know* what > his current position is, and will attend his presentation to find out > (I suppose I could ask him since I will be at the office tomorrow). > > Personal attacks really are pointless. I would APPRECIATE IT if they > would cease. > -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jonathan Lewis INET: jonathan@jlcomp.demon.co.uk Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services --------------------------------------------------------------------- To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: ListGuru@fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2DC3B.35960300 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Teradata baned from IOUG???

Jonathan,

     This is the forum for = critical analysis.  No question about it.  Someone publishes = stuff here and there are tons of people like Rachel, yourself and = Robert who will disagree and say why.  I have heard several = critiques of books, training classes, papers and seminars on this list, = and look at the discussion the top 10 do and don't list is = receiving.  I don't think anyone has a problem with open honest = discussion so long as claims are backed up and you're not calling the = person names (which I know you weren't).  And even if someone did = go to name calling, Jared will take care of them.  He's pretty = good about that.  No one should think that they should not be = allowed to disagree with anything said on this forum, so long as they = have the stat/proof/test/etc to back it up.  So if you (or anyone = else) have a problem with Rich's work and can prove it is incorrect = and/or dangerous, then say so and put out your reasons.  You may = save someone from a mistake that will cost them.  Let those who = agree with Rich respond with their say and hash it out, here on the = list.  That is, in it's essence, what this list is about.  =


--Chris


-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathan Lewis [mailto:jonathan@jlcomp.demon= .co.uk]
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 11:50 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: Re: Teradata baned from IOUG???



Robert,

I agree, personal attacks are inappropriate = and
fairly pointless.  On the other hand, I do = sympathise
with the people who are irritated by the = divergence
between Rich Niemiec's claims to be one of the = best,
and the poor, even dangerous, work that he = publishes.

Please note, I do not believe he is trying to = mislead
his readers into dangerous or unsuitable areas, = but
the combination of his claims to expertise, = past
reputation, and generally sketchy comments can = easily
persuade individuals to 'try option X' simply = because
Rich has written a few lines which say "option = X exists
and this is an example from the = manuals".

The question has to be asked, therefore, where = is
the forum for questioning the material published by = a
"guru" and if there is one, how do you = avoid crossing
the line between criticising the material and = criticising
the person ?



Personally, I don't mind if Rich thinks he's one of = the
best in the world; but I'd far rather see him = publish
a lower quantity and higher quality - his present = output
does not do his reputation credit.



Regards

Jonathan Lewis
http://www.jlcomp.demon.co.uk

Coming soon one-day tutorials:
Cost Based Optimisation
Trouble-shooting and Tuning
Indexing Strategies
(see http://www.jlcomp.demon.co.uk/tutorial.html = )

____UK_______March 19th
____USA_(FL)_May 2nd


Next Seminar dates:
(see http://www.jlcomp.demon.co.uk/seminar.html = )

____USA_(CA, TX)_August


The Co-operative Oracle Users' FAQ
http://www.jlcomp.demon.co.uk/faq/ind_faq.html


Freeman Robert - IL wrote:

> I must admit that I'm a bit tired of the = Rich/TUSC bashing here.
I've
> written and canned two rather terse responses = to personal attacks
> against Rich. If you want to disagree with his = position on BHR, go
for
> it, I have no problem with that. In fact, I'm = not sure I *know* what
> his current position is, and will attend his = presentation to find
out
> (I suppose I could ask him since I will be at = the office tomorrow).
>
> Personal attacks really are pointless. I would = APPRECIATE IT if they
> would cease.
>



--
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
--
Author: Jonathan Lewis
  INET: jonathan@jlcomp.demon.co.uk

Fat City Network Services    -- = 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, = California        -- Mailing list = and web hosting services
---------------------------------------------------------------= ------
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an = E-Mail message
to: ListGuru@fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of = 'ListGuru') and in
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB = ORACLE-L
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed = from).  You may
also send the HELP command for other information = (like subscribing).

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2DC3B.35960300-- -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Bowes, Chris INET: Chris.Bowes@kosa.com Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services --------------------------------------------------------------------- To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: ListGuru@fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).