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Home -> Community -> Mailing Lists -> Oracle-L -> Re: hmmm.....
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RE: hmmm.....No.
Let's talk about electing a dead governor to the U.S. Senate.
The current, live governor says he'll appoint the deceased's wife in his =
place
(who has graciously accepted) if the deceased wins.
Let's talk about nuclear reactors on Mars, next! <G>
-----Original Message-----
From: Kirsh, Gary [mailto:gary.kirsh_at_gs.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 2:59 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: RE: hmmm.....
Eric,
=20
I don't know how this thread got started, or where it's going, but =
since it showed up in my inbox, here's my $.02: Vouchers are a good =
start, but the real solution is no more public education. When did it =
become the government's job to run the schools? Did I miss that =
amendment to the constitution?
=20
Gary
=20
Gary Kirsh
Next Extent, Inc.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mohan, Ross [mailto:MohanR_at_STARS-SMI.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 1:26 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: RE: hmmm.....
I was thinking tshirt.=20
-----Original Message-----=20
From: Patrick Housholder [mailto:housholder_at_ualfltctr.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 12:41 PM=20
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L=20
Subject: RE: hmmm.....=20
ha...poster material!=20
Patrick=20
=
Patrick Housholder=20
Sr. Staff Programmer=20
United Airlines Flight Training Center=20
Denver CO=20
-----Original Message-----=20
Pierce=20
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 7:20 PM=20
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L=20
DT-=20
Great example of the elitist techno-engineer-purist mentality=20
(as opposed to the populist mass-market mentality)!=20
thanks,=20
ep=20
On 26 Oct 2000, at 16:50, Dennis Taylor wrote:=20
Date sent: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 16:50:37 -0800=20
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L =
<ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com>=20
> A little rude, but it rings a bell....=20
>=20
> http://www.jeigh.com/werk/admin/=20
---=20
lf from "white privilege"=20
Date sent: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 17:05:15 -0700=20
totn_at_npr.org=20
Juan,=20
I've long enjoyed your public radio work, and especially enjoy it=20
when you say "hold on a second", then use pithy questions to =
unravel the=20
illogic of a spinmeister, or deflate some bag of hot air that you =
are=20
interviewing.=20
Leftist establishmentarians, at least those wrapped in the =
hypnotic=20
cocoon of their own lack of rational and spiritual =
self-examination, are=20
desperately frightened that the people (as in "of the, by the, for =
the")=20
are going to be liberated from the monopoly that the liberal =
cliques have=20
built within public education. The proverbial emperor is about to =
be seen=20
as having little or no clothing.=20
(see http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/BIOS/lipset.html ,=20
http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/publications/digest/002/lipset.html =
,=20
---=20
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393040984=20
excerpt:=20
Book Description=20
Two of America's leading political sociologists explore a=20
phenomenon of American political exceptionalism: the failure of =
the socialist movement in the United States. Parties calling=20
themselves Socialist, Social-Democratic, Labor, or Communist =
have=20
been major forces in every democratic country in the world, yet =
they have played a surprisingly insignificant role in American=20
politics. Why the United States, the most developed capitalist=20
industrial society and hence, ostensibly, fertile ground for=20
socialism, should constitute an exception has been a critical=20
question of American history and political development. In this =
probing work the authors draw on rich contrasts with other=20
English-speaking countries and extensive comparisons within the =
United States at the state and city levels, eschewing =
conventional=20
explanations of socialism's demise to present a fuller =
understanding of=20
how multiple factors--political structure, American values, and =
the=20
split between the Socialist party and mainstream =
unions--combined to=20
seal socialism's fate. Further chapters examine the distinctive =
character of American trade unions, immigration and the =
fragmentation=20
of the American working class, socialist strategies, and =
repression,=20
concluding with a penetrating analysis of American political=20
exceptionalism up to the present day.=20
---=20
http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/publications/digest/002/novak.html =
,=20
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0465013708 )=20
My wife (a spanish national of the minority catalan ethnic group)=20
recently pointed out to me that even though the spanish political=20
system was dominated by socialism for over a decade, they have a =
very=20
effective school voucher program there.=20
As a progressive-populist from a liberal background, I've become=20
rapidly disillusioned with the propaganda of (anti-religious) =
liberal=20
extremists as the educational testing & voucher debate unfolds.=20
Paradoxically, as a member of what is called the "religious left", =
I end=20
up having to support, on principle, the conservative elements of =
religious=20
life in american society due to the prejudices of leftists and =
liberals.=20
When one of your guests says that the voucher movement is = dangerous=20
because it is seeking a "beach head" for conservatism in the=20
inner-city/minority communities that are the most dissatisfied =
with=20
the performance of the public education system, I am amazed and=20
disgusted by the liberal bias. As some of the public participants =
on your=20
program noted, the liberal academic on your panel seems to have =
come from=20
another planet than the one inhabited by actual parents and =
teachers.=20
In the "real world", the public education system has *long* been a =
"beach head", and more, for a failed, dysfunctional = leftist-socialist=20
agenda. I seems extremely ironic that educational leftism has = ended up as=20
a vestige of white privilege which is promoted primarily, but not=20
exclusively, by white suburbanites!=20
Inner cities are an unpleasant reminder of the failures of social- =
engineering programs that are based on leftist ideology. It is=20
amazing how the (supposed) "academic" apologists for the elitist=20
liberal public education "agenda" are incapable of taking=20
responsibility for the moral, ethical, philosophical and practical =
failures of their ideology. The cynical political calculus they=20
promote contains a subtext indicating that as long as the dominant =
culture in the suburbs can send its kids to public schools that =
are=20
"good enough", we can let the "unworthy" people in inner cities =
rot=20
under decrepit pubic education systems, while simultaneously=20
overlooking the highly unprincipled exclusion of conservatives and =
religious perspectives from the democratic processes involving =
public=20
education.=20
Liberal social engineering programs are premised on the idea that =
a=20
liberal "elite" (which is really an atheist priesthood), supported =
by=20
public funding, will dictate an "enlightened" ideology to the =
masses.=20
No wonder parents and community don't want to participate more in=20
public education. Why would people want to conform to the=20
dysfunctional power arrangements implied in the politics of public =
education?=20
The arrogance of the "experts" (such as your guest), that come out =
of=20
liberal academia becomes all the more obvious when it becomes =
apparent=20
that they think the deception and lies that they have been long =
advocating=20
are going to be swallowed by the people for much longer. The =
assumption=20
that they can keep deceiving people about the glaring conflict of =
interest=20
they have in maintaining the bureaucracy by using specialized =
terminology=20
and "research" (frequently just obscurantist, fashionable =
nonsense) is=20
incredible.=20
The supposedly "enlightened" liberal ideology contains a =
"dangerous" form=20
of quasi-atheism, at least to the extent that it is *silently* =
premised on=20
excluding religion from public life.=20
The *real* "great danger" is that the bureaucratic dictatorship =
that=20
leftists and liberals have tried to establish in education and =
social work=20
for several generations may actually be scrutinized by the people =
in terms=20
of its moral, ethical and practical failures. *Of course* allowing =
more=20
families to take their own tax dollars back in order to =
participate in=20
private (or religious) schools is a giant threat to the liberal=20
establishment's power structure.=20
Conservative perspectives uphold the need for ethical/spiritual=20
values in *public* life. Leftist establishmentarian perspectives =
tend to=20
be hostile to the idea that "diversity" should include tolerance =
of even=20
the suggestion that religious values can play a creative, dynamic =
role in=20
*public* life.=20
A spiritually maturing society that seeks love, healing,=20
transformation, atonement, redemption and enlightenment through=20
nearness to "the sacred" doesn't need to be coddled by elitist =
pseudo-=20
scientific "experts" and all the incompetent bureaucrats and =
corrupt=20
politicians bobbing in their philosophical wake.=20
Its time to let *true* democracy work. If that means that the =
people will=20
have to be trusted with responsibility, and that the dictatorial =
liberal=20
bureaucrats will have to let the people find out if alternatives =
work or=20
not, so be it. I would much rather allow a diverse range of =
education=20
options and experiments (including those that are supportive of=20
educational perspectives framed in terms of conservative and =
religious=20
values), than see the corruption involved in liberal public =
education=20
continue, unexamined.=20
Warm regards,=20
Eric D. Pierce=20
Database Analyst=20
California State Univeristy, Sacramento=20
------------------------------------------------------=20
web references:=20
http://www.npr.org/programs/totn=20
-=20
http://www.npr.org/programs/totn/inside=20
----=20
=
( http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/bios/steele.html )=20
-=20
=
http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/finn_1000.html=20
-=20
=
http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/peterson_1000.html=20
-=20
=
http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/peterson_0500.html=20
-=20
http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/moe_0900.html =
-=20
=
-=20
=
http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/hoxby_0300.html=20
-=20
=
http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/walberg_0200.html=20
-=20
=
http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/hill_1299.html=20
-=20
=
----=20
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/gergen/november97/patterson_11-13.html =
excerpt:=20
...=20
ORLANDO PATTERSON: ... the situation itself is one in which there =
is not=20
a simple movement, harmonious movement. There is a change-- =
positive=20
change is always accompanied by friction; however, our perception =
of=20
what's happening is also paradoxical in the sense that both the =
right and=20
the left, as well as the Afro-American leadership, all have strong =
interest in perceiving the situation as in negative terms.=20
DAVID GERGEN: Tell me more about that. That's really--=20
ORLANDO PATTERSON: Well, for the right wants to castigate the=20
government for the failures of its--all its programs on behalf of =
the=20
poor, the Afro-American poor. It makes sense they exaggerate the =
problem=20
to show how we're losing ground because of the horrendous =
government=20
interference in policies, so that welfare dependency and so on is=20
increasing and it's increasing because of rotten government =
policies. For=20
the left, the liberal group, exaggerating the problem, emphasizing =
that=20
America is chronically racist seems--is mistakenly believed that =
this will=20
keep the pressure up for government to intervene even more. And =
the=20
criticism here is just the opposite of the right, which is that =
things are=20
bad because the government hasn't gone far enough, or there's =
still, the=20
place is still chronically racist, so there's still a need for =
more=20
government intervention.=20
And for Afro-American leadership emphasizing racism as =
being--America as=20
irredeemably racist--enhances their broker role, obviously, and =
again=20
mistakenly is based on the view that by presenting an image of =
almost no=20
progress, you will increase the possibility of greater =
intervention. And=20
it's also partly due to the tragic commitment to the ideology of =
the=20
victim, a very deterministic view, which I'm afraid most =
Afro-American=20
leadership has adopted, which tends to assume that by perceiving =
of=20
Afro-Americans as victims you increase the chance of intervention =
on their=20
behalf. Now, unfortunately, this worked. This is the strategy of =
the 60's.=20
It's interesting that the great Supreme Court decision, which =
struck down=20
school segregation, was based on a determinist view, i.e., social=20
scientists were brought in to show that it created victims, rather =
than=20
the view that this is the right thing to do. ...=20
----=20
http://www.meaning.org/fem/frame_who.html=20
-=20
http://www.tikkun.org/=20
-=20
(Robert Reich's web site:)=20
http://www.epn.org/issues/vouchers.html=20
-=20
http://www.epn.org/links/edlinks.html=20
Robert Reich on "Progressive Vouchers":=20
http://www.prospect.org/columns/reich/reich-r-000908.html=20
-=20
http://www.prospect.org/archives/V11-14/reich-r.html=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20
misc stuff:=20
http://www.educationpolicy.org/files/neaftbk/book0003.htm#I13=20
http://www.epn.org/index.html=20
-=20
http://www.epn.org/whatsnew/org/CURP-1.html=20
-=20
http://www.epn.org/whatsnew/subjects/education-1.html=20
http://www.epn.org/whatsnew/full_cite/47.html=20
-=20
http://www.curp.neu.edu/viewwebcontent.asp?id=3D1132=20
5-10-00=20
In a city very familiar with the squabble that accompanies=20
education policy, Boston is an appropriate setting for Judy=20
Burnette, an 11-year veteran of the parent choice movement. As=20
Program Development Coordinator for Northeastern University's=20
Urban Law and Public Policy Institute (ULPPI), Burnette's voice=20
joins a growing faction of minorities who support parent choice=20
reforms like school vouchers, although the "face" of the voucher =
movement still tends to be white, upper-class, religious=20
conservatives. "People will say to me, 'How can you be black and =
support vouchers?'" Burnette says. "But the real goal should be=20
high-quality education, however it can happen." by Maggie Adams=20
(more info similar to the above):=20
http://reason.com/opeds/ml030200.html=20
[note: { http://reason.com/whatThey.html } "Reason =
magazine...makes=20
the best case for practical libertarianism. Well-written and -=20
researched articles delve into the specifics of economics and=20
politics, offering alternatives and critiques."=20
- The Millennium Whole Earth Catalog=20
http://reason.com/Bio/postrel.html ]=20
and: http://www.curp.neu.edu/viewwebcontent.asp?id=3D1104=20
(the list of below links is from:=20
http://www.curp.neu.edu/dcontent.asp?cat=3D4 )=20
"City Schools and City Politics:=20
Institutions and Leadership in=20
Pittsburgh, Boston, and St. Louis":=20
http://www.curp.neu.edu/dcontent.asp?id=3D161=20
"Savage Inequalities":=20
http://www.curp.neu.edu/dcontent.asp?id=3D1117=20
W.J. Wilson:=20
http://www.curp.neu.edu/dcontent.asp?id=3D1110=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20
http://www.edweek.org/context/topics/issuespage.cfm?id=3D30=20
-=20
http://www.rethinkingschools.org/=20
-------(linked from EPN) anti-voucher stuff:=20
http://www.pfaw.org/issues/education/milwaukee.shtml=20
-=20
(black activist accuses white pro-voucher conservatives of =
hijacking the=20
issues:)=20
=
------------------------=20
technology and education reform (Bob Metcalf):=20
http://www.internet2.edu/=20
=
=
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/metcalfe/981109bm.htm=20
---end---=20
--=20
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com=20
--=20
Author: Eric D. Pierce=20
INET: PierceED_at_csus.edu=20
Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) =
538-5051=20
San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing =
Lists=20
=
--------------------------------------------------------------------=20
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message=20
to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and =
in=20
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L=20
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You =
may=20
also send the HELP command for other information (like =
subscribing).=20
--=20
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com=20
--=20
Author: Patrick Housholder=20
INET: housholder_at_ualfltctr.com=20
Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) =
538-5051=20
San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing =
Lists=20
=
--------------------------------------------------------------------=20
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message=20
to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and =
in=20
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L=20
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You =
may=20
also send the HELP command for other information (like =
subscribing).=20
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD><TITLE>RE: hmmm.....</TITLE> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>No.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Let's talk about electing a dead governor to the =U.S.=20
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: hmmm.....</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D222464620-31102000><FONT color=3D#0000ff =face=3DArial=20
Tuesday, October 31, 2000 2:59 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Multiple recipients = of list=20
ORACLE-L<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: hmmm.....<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D628514619-31102000><FONT color=3D#0000ff = face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Eric,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D628514619-31102000><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D628514619-31102000><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
face=3DArial size=3D2>I=20
don't know how this thread got started, or where it's going, but = since it=20
showed up in my inbox, here's my $.02: Vouchers are a good = start, but=20
the real solution is no more public education. When did it = become the=20
government's job to run the schools? Did I miss that amendment = to the=20
constitution?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D628514619-31102000><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D628514619-31102000><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Gary</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D628514619-31102000><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D628514619-31102000><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Gary Kirsh</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D628514619-31102000><FONT color=3D#0000ff = face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Next Extent, Inc.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT = face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Mohan, Ross=20
[mailto:MohanR_at_STARS-SMI.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, October 31, =
2000=20
1:26 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Multiple recipients of list=20
ORACLE-L<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: hmmm.....<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT size=3D2>I was thinking tshirt.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>From:=20
Patrick Housholder [<A=20
=
<BR><FONT size=3D2>Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 12:41 PM</FONT> = <BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>Subject: RE: hmmm.....</FONT> </P><BR>
<P><FONT size=3D2>ha...poster material!</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Patrick</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT =
size=3D2>Patrick Housholder</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Sr. Staff=20
Programmer</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>United Airlines Flight =
Training=20
Center</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Denver CO</FONT> </P><BR>
<P><FONT size=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>Pierce</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Sent: Thursday, October =
26, 2000=20
7:20 PM</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>To: Multiple recipients of list=20
ORACLE-L</FONT> </P><BR>
<P><FONT size=3D2>DT-</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Great example of =
the elitist=20
techno-engineer-purist mentality</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>(as =
opposed to=20
the populist mass-market mentality)!</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>thanks,</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>ep</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>On 26 Oct 2000, at 16:50, Dennis Taylor =
wrote:</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Date sent: =20
Thu, 26 Oct 2000 =
16:50:37=20
-0800</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
=
Multiple recipients of = list=20
ORACLE-L <ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>> A little rude, but it rings a =
bell....</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>></FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>> <A=20
href=3D"http://www.jeigh.com/werk/admin/"=20
target=3D_blank>http://www.jeigh.com/werk/admin/</A></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>---</FONT> </P><BR>
<P><FONT size=3D2>lf from "white privilege"</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>Date=20
sent: =20
Thu, 26 Oct 2000 =
17:05:15=20
-0700</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>totn_at_npr.org</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Juan,</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>I've long enjoyed your public radio work, and =
especially=20
enjoy it</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>when you say "hold on a =
second", then use=20
pithy questions to unravel the</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>illogic =
of a=20
spinmeister, or deflate some bag of hot air that you are</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>interviewing.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Leftist establishmentarians, at least those =
wrapped in the=20
hypnotic</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>cocoon of their own lack of =
rational and=20
spiritual self-examination, are</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>desperately=20
frightened that the people (as in "of the, by the, for =
the")</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>are going to be liberated from the monopoly =
that the=20
liberal cliques have</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>built within public =
education. The proverbial emperor is about to be seen</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>as having little or no clothing.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>(see <A=20
href=3D"http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/BIOS/lipset.html"=20
=
<BR><FONT size=3D2><A=20
=
=
target=3D_blank>http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/publications/digest/002/li=
pset.html</A>=20
,</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>---</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393040984"=20
=
</P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>excerpt:</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2> Book Description</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2> Two of America's leading political=20
sociologists explore a</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2> =
phenomenon of=20
American political exceptionalism: the failure of</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2> the socialist movement in the United States. =
Parties=20
calling</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2> themselves =
Socialist,=20
Social-Democratic, Labor, or Communist have</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
size=3D2> been major forces in every democratic =
country in the=20
world, yet</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2> they have played =
a=20
surprisingly insignificant role in American</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
size=3D2> politics. Why the United States, the most =
developed=20
capitalist</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2> industrial =
society and=20
hence, ostensibly, fertile ground for</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2> =20
socialism, should constitute an exception has been a =
critical</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2> question of American history and =
political=20
development. In this</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2> =
probing work the=20
authors draw on rich contrasts with other</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
size=3D2> English-speaking countries and extensive =
comparisons=20
within the</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2> United States at =
the state=20
and city levels, eschewing conventional</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
size=3D2> explanations of socialism's demise to =
present a fuller=20
understanding of</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2> how =
multiple=20
factors--political structure, American values, and the</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2> split between the Socialist party and =
mainstream=20
unions--combined to</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2> seal =
socialism's=20
fate. Further chapters examine the distinctive</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
size=3D2> character of American trade unions, =
immigration and=20
the fragmentation</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2> of the =
American=20
working class, socialist strategies, and repression,</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2> concluding with a penetrating analysis of =
American=20
political</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2> exceptionalism up =
to the=20
present day.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>---</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2><A=20
=
=
target=3D_blank>http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/publications/digest/002/no=
vak.html</A>=20
,</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0465013708"=20
=
target=3D_blank>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0465013708</A>=20
)</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>My wife (a spanish national of the minority =
catalan ethnic=20
group)</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>recently pointed out to me that =
even though=20
the spanish political</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>system was =
dominated by=20
socialism for over a decade, they have a very</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>effective school voucher program there.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>As a progressive-populist from a liberal =
background, I've=20
become</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>rapidly disillusioned with the =
propaganda=20
of (anti-religious) liberal</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>extremists =
as the=20
educational testing & voucher debate unfolds.</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>Paradoxically, as a member of what is called the =
"religious left",=20
I end</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>up having to support, on =
principle, the=20
conservative elements of religious</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>life =
in=20
american society due to the prejudices of leftists and =
liberals.</FONT>=20
</P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>When one of your guests says that the voucher =
movement is=20
dangerous</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>because it is seeking a "beach =
head" for=20
conservatism in the</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>inner-city/minority=20
communities that are the most dissatisfied with</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>the performance of the public education system, I am =
amazed=20
and</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>disgusted by the liberal bias. As =
some of the=20
public participants on your</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>program =
noted, the=20
liberal academic on your panel seems to have come from</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>another planet than the one inhabited by actual parents =
and=20
teachers.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>In the "real world", the public education system =
has=20
*long* been a</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>"beach head", and more, =
for a=20
failed, dysfunctional leftist-socialist</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>agenda. I=20
seems extremely ironic that educational leftism has ended up =
as</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>a vestige of white privilege which is promoted =
primarily,=20
but not</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>exclusively, by white =
suburbanites!</FONT>=20
</P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Inner cities are an unpleasant reminder of the =
failures of=20
social-</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>engineering programs that are =
based on=20
leftist ideology. It is</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>amazing how the =
(supposed)=20
"academic" apologists for the elitist</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>liberal=20
public education "agenda" are incapable of taking</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>responsibility for the moral, ethical, philosophical and=20
practical</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>failures of their ideology. =
The cynical=20
political calculus they</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>promote contains =
a subtext=20
indicating that as long as the dominant</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>culture in=20
the suburbs can send its kids to public schools that are</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>"good enough", we can let the "unworthy" people in inner =
cities=20
rot</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>under decrepit pubic education =
systems, while=20
simultaneously</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>overlooking the highly =
unprincipled=20
exclusion of conservatives and</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>religious =
perspectives from the democratic processes involving public</FONT> =
<BR><FONT size=3D2>education.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Liberal social engineering programs are premised =
on the=20
idea that a</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>liberal "elite" (which is =
really an=20
atheist priesthood), supported by</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>public =
funding,=20
will dictate an "enlightened" ideology to the masses.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>No wonder parents and community don't want to =
participate=20
more in</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>public education. Why would =
people want to=20
conform to the</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>dysfunctional power =
arrangements=20
implied in the politics of public</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>education?</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>The arrogance of the "experts" (such as your =
guest), that=20
come out of</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>liberal academia becomes all =
the more=20
obvious when it becomes apparent</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>that =
they think=20
the deception and lies that they have been long advocating</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>are going to be swallowed by the people for =
much longer.=20
The assumption</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>that they can keep =
deceiving people=20
about the glaring conflict of interest</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>they have=20
in maintaining the bureaucracy by using specialized =
terminology</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>and "research" (frequently just obscurantist, =
fashionable=20
nonsense) is</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>incredible.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>The supposedly "enlightened" liberal ideology =
contains a=20
"dangerous" form</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>of quasi-atheism, at =
least to the=20
extent that it is *silently* premised on</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>excluding=20
religion from public life.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>The *real* "great danger" is that the =
bureaucratic=20
dictatorship that</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>leftists and liberals =
have tried=20
to establish in education and social work</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>for=20
several generations may actually be scrutinized by the people in=20
terms</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>of its moral, ethical and =
practical=20
failures. *Of course* allowing more</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>families to=20
take their own tax dollars back in order to participate in</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>private (or religious) schools is a giant =
threat to the=20
liberal</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>establishment's power =
structure.</FONT>=20
</P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Conservative perspectives uphold the need for=20
ethical/spiritual</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>values in *public* =
life. Leftist=20
establishmentarian perspectives tend to</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>be hostile=20
to the idea that "diversity" should include tolerance of =
even</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>the suggestion that religious values can play a =
creative,=20
dynamic role in</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>*public* life.</FONT> =
</P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>A spiritually maturing society that seeks love,=20
healing,</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>transformation, atonement, =
redemption and=20
enlightenment through</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>nearness to "the =
sacred"=20
doesn't need to be coddled by elitist pseudo-</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>scientific "experts" and all the incompetent bureaucrats =
and=20
corrupt</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>politicians bobbing in their =
philosophical=20
wake.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Its time to let *true* democracy work. If that =
means that=20
the people will</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>have to be trusted with=20
responsibility, and that the dictatorial liberal</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>bureaucrats will have to let the people find out if =
alternatives=20
work or</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>not, so be it. I would much =
rather allow a=20
diverse range of education</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>options and =
experiments=20
(including those that are supportive of</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>educational perspectives framed in terms of conservative =
and=20
religious</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>values), than see the =
corruption=20
involved in liberal public education</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>continue,=20
unexamined.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Warm regards,</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Eric D. Pierce</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>Database=20
Analyst</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>California State Univeristy,=20
Sacramento</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT=20
=
size=3D2>------------------------------------------------------</FONT> =
</P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>web references:</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2><A href=3D"http://www.npr.org/programs/totn"=20
target=3D_blank>http://www.npr.org/programs/totn</A></FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>-</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.npr.org/programs/totn/inside"=20
target=3D_blank>http://www.npr.org/programs/totn/inside</A></FONT> =
</P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>----</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2><A=20
=
=
target=3D_blank>http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/stee=
le_1000.html</A></FONT>=20
</P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>( <A=20
href=3D"http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/bios/steele.html"=20
=
<BR><FONT size=3D2>-</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2><A=20
=
=
target=3D_blank>http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/finn=
_1000.html</A></FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>-</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2><A=20
=
=
target=3D_blank>http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/pete=
rson_1000.html</A></FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>-</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2><A=20
=
=
target=3D_blank>http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/pete=
rson_0500.html</A></FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>-</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2><A=20
=
=
target=3D_blank>http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/moe_=
0900.html</A></FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>-</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2><A=20
=
=
target=3D_blank>http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/finn=
_0400.html</A></FONT>=20
</P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>-</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2><A=20
=
=
target=3D_blank>http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/hoxb=
y_0300.html</A></FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>-</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2><A=20
=
.html"=20
=
target=3D_blank>http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/walb= erg_0200.html</A></FONT>=20 <BR><FONT size=3D2>-</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2><A=20
=
=
target=3D_blank>http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/hill=
_1299.html</A></FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>-</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2><A=20
=
=
target=3D_blank>http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaffairs/we/current/hirs=
ch_1199.html</A></FONT>=20
</P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>----</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2><A=20
=
=
target=3D_blank>http://www.pbs.org/newshour/gergen/november97/patterson_1=
1-13.html</A></FONT>=20
</P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>excerpt:</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>...</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>ORLANDO PATTERSON: =
... =20
the situation itself is one in which there is not</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>a simple movement, harmonious movement. There is a =
change--=20
positive</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>change is always accompanied by =
friction;=20
however, our perception of</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>what's =
happening is=20
also paradoxical in the sense that both the right and</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>the left, as well as the Afro-American leadership, all =
have=20
strong</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>interest in perceiving the =
situation as in=20
negative terms.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>DAVID GERGEN: Tell me more about that. That's=20
really--</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>ORLANDO PATTERSON: Well, for the right wants to =
castigate=20
the</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>government for the failures of =
its--all its=20
programs on behalf of the</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>poor, the =
Afro-American=20
poor. It makes sense they exaggerate the problem</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>to show how we're losing ground because of the horrendous =
government</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>interference in policies, so =
that=20
welfare dependency and so on is</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>increasing and=20
it's increasing because of rotten government policies. For</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>the left, the liberal group, exaggerating the =
problem,=20
emphasizing that</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>America is chronically =
racist=20
seems--is mistakenly believed that this will</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>keep=20
the pressure up for government to intervene even more. And =
the</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>criticism here is just the opposite of the =
right, which=20
is that things are</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>bad because the =
government=20
hasn't gone far enough, or there's still, the</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>place is still chronically racist, so there's still a =
need for=20
more</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>government intervention.</FONT> =
</P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>And for Afro-American leadership emphasizing =
racism as=20
being--America as</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>irredeemably =
racist--enhances=20
their broker role, obviously, and again</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>mistakenly=20
is based on the view that by presenting an image of almost =
no</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>progress, you will increase the possibility of =
greater=20
intervention. And</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>it's also partly due =
to the=20
tragic commitment to the ideology of the</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>victim, a=20
very deterministic view, which I'm afraid most =
Afro-American</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>leadership has adopted, which tends to assume =
that by=20
perceiving of</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Afro-Americans as victims =
you=20
increase the chance of intervention on their</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>behalf. Now, unfortunately, this worked. This is the =
strategy of=20
the 60's.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>It's interesting that the =
great Supreme=20
Court decision, which struck down</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>school =
segregation, was based on a determinist view, i.e., social</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>scientists were brought in to show that it =
created=20
victims, rather than</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>the view that this =
is the=20
right thing to do. ...</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>----</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.meaning.org/fem/frame_who.html"=20
=
target=3D_blank>http://www.meaning.org/fem/frame_who.html</A></FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>-</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.tikkun.org/"=20
target=3D_blank>http://www.tikkun.org/</A></FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>-</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>(Robert Reich's web site:)</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2><A =
href=3D"http://www.epn.org/issues/vouchers.html"=20
target=3D_blank>http://www.epn.org/issues/vouchers.html</A></FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>-</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.epn.org/links/edlinks.html"=20
target=3D_blank>http://www.epn.org/links/edlinks.html</A></FONT> =
</P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Robert Reich on "Progressive Vouchers":</FONT> =
</P>
<P><FONT size=3D2> <A=20
href=3D"http://www.prospect.org/columns/reich/reich-r-000908.html" =
=
<BR><FONT size=3D2> -</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2> <A=20
href=3D"http://www.prospect.org/archives/V11-14/reich-r.html"=20
=
</P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</FONT> =
<BR><FONT size=3D2> misc=20
stuff:</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2> <A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.educationpolicy.org/files/neaftbk/book0003.htm#I13"=20
=
</P>
<P><FONT size=3D2> <A href=3D"http://www.epn.org/index.html" =
target=3D_blank>http://www.epn.org/index.html</A></FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2> -</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2> <A=20
href=3D"http://www.epn.org/whatsnew/org/CURP-1.html"=20
=
target=3D_blank>http://www.epn.org/whatsnew/org/CURP-1.html</A></FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2> -</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2> <A=20
href=3D"http://www.epn.org/whatsnew/subjects/education-1.html"=20
=
</P>
<P><FONT size=3D2> <A=20
href=3D"http://www.epn.org/whatsnew/full_cite/47.html"=20
=
<BR><FONT size=3D2> -</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2> <A=20
href=3D"http://www.curp.neu.edu/viewwebcontent.asp?id=3D1132"=20
=
</P>
<P><FONT size=3D2> 5-10-00</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2> In a city very familiar with the squabble =
that=20
accompanies</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2> education policy, =
Boston is an=20
appropriate setting for Judy</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2> =
Burnette, an=20
11-year veteran of the parent choice movement. As</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2> Program Development Coordinator for Northeastern=20
University's</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2> Urban Law and Public =
Policy=20
Institute (ULPPI), Burnette's voice</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2> joins a=20
growing faction of minorities who support parent choice</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2> reforms like school vouchers, although the "face" =
of the=20
voucher</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2> movement still tends to =
be white,=20
upper-class, religious</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2> =
conservatives.=20
"People will say to me, 'How can you be black and</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2> support vouchers?'" Burnette says. "But the real =
goal should=20
be</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2> high-quality education, =
however it can=20
happen." by Maggie Adams</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2> (more info similar to the above):</FONT> =
</P>
<P><FONT size=3D2> <A =
href=3D"http://reason.com/opeds/ml030200.html"=20
target=3D_blank>http://reason.com/opeds/ml030200.html</A></FONT> =
</P>
<P><FONT size=3D2> [note: { <A =
href=3D"http://reason.com/whatThey.html"=20
target=3D_blank>http://reason.com/whatThey.html</A> } "Reason=20
magazine...makes</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2> the best =
case for=20
practical libertarianism. Well-written and -</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
size=3D2> researched articles delve into the specifics =
of=20
economics and</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2> politics, =
offering=20
alternatives and critiques."</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2> - The=20
Millennium Whole Earth Catalog</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2> <A=20
href=3D"http://reason.com/Bio/postrel.html"=20
target=3D_blank>http://reason.com/Bio/postrel.html</A> ]</FONT> =
</P>
<P><FONT size=3D2> and: <A=20
href=3D"http://www.curp.neu.edu/viewwebcontent.asp?id=3D1104"=20
=
</P>
<P><FONT size=3D2> (the list of below links is =
from:</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2> <A=20
href=3D"http://www.curp.neu.edu/dcontent.asp?cat=3D4"=20
target=3D_blank>http://www.curp.neu.edu/dcontent.asp?cat=3D4</A> =
)</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2> "City Schools and City =
Politics:</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2> Institutions and =
Leadership=20
in</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2> Pittsburgh, =
Boston,=20
and St. Louis":</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2> <A=20
href=3D"http://www.curp.neu.edu/dcontent.asp?id=3D161"=20
=
<P><FONT size=3D2> "Savage Inequalities":</FONT> = </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2> <A=20
href=3D"http://www.curp.neu.edu/dcontent.asp?id=3D1117"=20
=
<P><FONT size=3D2> W.J. Wilson:</FONT> = </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2> <A=20
href=3D"http://www.curp.neu.edu/dcontent.asp?id=3D1110"=20
=
<P><FONT size=3D2>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2><A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.edweek.org/context/topics/issuespage.cfm?id=3D30"=20
=
<BR><FONT size=3D2>-</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.rethinkingschools.org/"=20
target=3D_blank>http://www.rethinkingschools.org/</A></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>-------(linked from EPN) anti-voucher =
stuff:</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.pfaw.org/issues/education/milwaukee.shtml"=20
=
pro-voucher conservatives of hijacking the</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>issues:)</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2><A=20
=
=
target=3D_blank>http://www.boston.com/globe/search/stories/reprints/polly=
112798.htm</A></FONT>=20
</P><BR>
<P><FONT size=3D2>------------------------</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>technology and education reform (Bob =
Metcalf):</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2><A href=3D"http://www.internet2.edu/"=20
target=3D_blank>http://www.internet2.edu/</A></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2> <A=20
=
=
target=3D_blank>http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/metcalfe/=
981026bm.htm</A></FONT>=20
</P>
<P><FONT size=3D2> <A=20
=
=
target=3D_blank>http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/metcalfe/=
981109bm.htm</A></FONT>=20
</P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>---end---</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>--</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Please see the =
official=20
ORACLE-L FAQ: <A href=3D"http://www.orafaq.com"=20
target=3D_blank>http://www.orafaq.com</A></FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>--</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>Author: Eric D. Pierce</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2> =20
INET: PierceED_at_csus.edu</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Fat City Network Services -- =
(858)=20
538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>San =
Diego,=20
California -- Public =
Internet=20
access / Mailing Lists</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
=
size=3D2>----------------------------------------------------------------=
----</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send =
an E-Mail=20
message</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note =
EXACT=20
spelling of 'ListGuru') and in</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>the =
message BODY,=20
include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>(or the=20
name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You =
may</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>also send the HELP command for other =
information (like=20
Received on Tue Oct 31 2000 - 15:32:54 CST
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