# Re: Sixth normal form

Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 13:34:48 -0700

Message-ID: <1186518888.172412.160380_at_b79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>

On Aug 7, 3:30 pm, Jan Hidders <hidd..._at_gmail.com> wrote:

> On 7 aug, 20:36, vldm10 <vld..._at_yahoo.com> wrote:

*>
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**> > On Aug 1, 7:36 am, Jan Hidders <hidd..._at_gmail.com> wrote:
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**> > > Any attempt to reformulate it to something easier or more intuitive in
**> > > my experience almost always ends up with something that is either
**> > > wrong or actually harder to understand.
**>
**> > > The only somewhat mysterious part may be the "JD is implied by the
**> > > CKs" but this can be tested by the following simple procedure:
**>
**> > > 1. Let jd be the join dependency we want to test
**> > > 2. While jd has two elements (being sets of attributes) Si and Sj such
**> > > that the intersection of Si and Sj contains a candidate key do:
**> > > 2.1 replace Si and Sj with the union of Si and Sj
**> > > 3. If jd contains the header of the relation (which is also a set of
**> > > attributes) then return "yes" else "false"
**> > > -- Jan Hidders
**>
**> > You gave here the procedure which is more on intuitive level than
**> > based on some formal system.
**>
**> Although somewhat informally described by me, it is a proper algorithm
**> and as such *is* a formal system that has been proven both sound and
**> complete.
**>
**> > The other thing here which is maybe with a questionable meaning is
**> > "The only somewhat mysterious part...". This seems like there are
**> > some other parts in definition of 5NF.
**>
**> You may want to check your irony-meter. It seems broken. :-)
**>
**> > Now we can set the question - why mentioned procedure for misterios
**> > part is combination of formal and intuitive. Although, mentioned
**> > procedure is useful, I beleive it is good to be aware of the
**> > following:
**>
**> > a) Cks are based on FDs and for FDs there is a formal system.
**> > b) For JDs there is no formal system in the sense of complete
**> > inference rules.
**>
**> JDs have been succesfully axiomatized. In fact, much larger classes
**> including MVDs, FDs and much more have been axiomatized. See the Alice
**> book for a wealth of information on that.
**>
**> -- Jan Hidders- Hide quoted text -
**>
**> - Show quoted text -
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There is no irony in my post. I am sorry, that you understood this as an irony. You used the term "mysterious part" for esential of 5NF. If you use this term like "loosely" kind of everday user-group communication, than it is OK for me. I can understand it. If you mean something serious, than I need additional explanation. I also clearly wrote, " Although, mentioned procedure is useful,...". Regarding the formal level of the procedure, I gave my opinion and signed it as well as you gave and sign your.

Vladimir Odrljin Received on Tue Aug 07 2007 - 22:34:48 CEST