Re: Lots of Idiotic Silly Braces?

From: paul c <toledobythesea_at_oohay.ac>
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 20:48:07 GMT
Message-ID: <biuoi.135995$1i1.14227_at_pd7urf3no>


paul c wrote:

> Brian Selzer wrote:
> 

>> "paul c" <toledobythesea_at_oohay.ac> wrote in message
>> news:Lf4oi.131821$xq1.73460_at_pd7urf1no...
>>
>>> Brian Selzer wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> Can rva's be keys? A relation value being the extension of a
>>>> predicate, the set of tuples in a relation value represents a set of
>>>> positive atomic formulae, and under the closed world assumption,
>>>> that set implies the negation of each atomic formula that conforms
>>>> to the schema but is not represented by a tuple. How, then, can a
>>>> relation valued attribute be a key? Consider, the schema R{S{A,
>>>> B}}, and the following relation value, r:
>>>>
>>>> r = {{S={{A=3, B=4}, {A=3, B=5}}}, {S={A=3, B=4}}}
>>>>
>>>> Now, suppose that P(A, B) is the predicate of S. The first tuple of
>>>> r asserts that P(3, 5) is true, but the second tuple implies that
>>>> P(3, 5) is false. ...
>>>
>>>
>>> I think "S" here is an attribute name, not a relation. S refers to
>>> two different relation values which happen to appear as tuples in r.
>>> The first tuple of of r asserts that the ("first", relation-valued)
>>> tuple that combines (P(3,4) AND P(3,5)) is true in one relation
>>> value. The second tuple implies that (P (3,5)) is false in the
>>> "second" relation value.
>>>
>>
>>
>> But that's the point. How can they both be true? And if they can,
>> then how can it be consistent since there isn't also a tuple {S={A=3,
>> B=5}}?
>> ...
> 
> 
> Those are the kind of questions that people who don't believe in Santa 
> Claus ask.  We are talking about the behaviour of a machine here, not 
> mythology!
> 

That's maybe not a very useful reply, let me try again. If P(A,B) is the predicate of S, let's say P2(P(A,B)) is the predicate of r. You say the second tuple of r implies that P(3,5) is false. I say the second tuple of r implies that P2(P(3,5)) is false and that r has nothing to say about the truth or falseness of proposition P(3,5).

UNGROUP (at least the D&D version which is the only one I'm familiar with) seems to have the effect of discarding the P2 predicate. I think you are mentally ungrouping r and pretending that the result has the same predicate as r, which I think is trying to have your cake and eat it too.

p Received on Sat Jul 21 2007 - 22:48:07 CEST

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