Re: The wisdom of the object mentors (Was: Searching OO Associations with RDBMS Persistence Models)

From: Robert Martin <>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 01:30:27 -0500
Message-ID: <2006060201302786357-unclebob_at_objectmentorcom>

On 2006-05-31 12:26:23 -0500, "Marshall" <> said:

> Robert Martin wrote:

>> On 2006-05-30 17:54:53 -0500, "Marshall" <> said:
>>> There are many different contexts in which software is developed.
>>> I will speak relative to enterprise software, which is where DBMS
>>> software is often found. In that context, the above quoted
>>> paragraph is pure, unadulterated garbage. It is not simply
>>> valueless; it is actively harmful. The writer furthermore
>>> demonstrates that he completely lacks any understanding
>>> of what the field of data management is, or what it is for,
>>> or why it is useful.
>> [...]
>> Are you saying that it is "pure unadulterated garbage" that application
>> developers should isolate their application code from the the whims of
>> the API designers at Oracle?  Should those application designers use
>> every little cute ORACLE trick and call?  Or shoudl they stick to
>> standard SQL as proferred by ODBMS or JDBMS, etc.  Should those
>> application developers scatter embedded SQL all through their
>> application code?  Or should they partition that application code into
>> areas that know about the DB and areas that don't?  Should they strive
>> to make it possible to swap Oracle for MySql or not?  Should they
>> strive even to eliminate the relational flavor of the data from the
>> guts of their algorithms, or not.

> Seven consecutive leading questions and my parser runs out
> of memory. Uh, let's see: yes, as appropriate, ideally (assuming
> you mean JDBC; I don't know what JDBMS is), no-of-course-
> not-I-never-suggested-otherwise, yes, no, probably not.
> (Perhaps we could come up with a better format for dialog.)

Heck no, that was fun! But I find your answers to be contradictory. You say that application developers should not isolate their code from the DBMS API, and yet you also say that they should not spread SQL throughout their code. To me those two things are synonyms.

To me, and application should be layered such that the lowest layers know about the data management scheme. If that scheme is relational, then that layer knows about SQL, and is the only layer that knows about SQL. Higher layers make use of the abstract services of the lower layers.

>> However, I understand both sides quite wall, having done both and been
>> resonsible for both, for damned near 35 years now.

> Your CV is excellent. Mine is too.

Indeed I never once implied otherwise.

If you look back through my posts you will find that I never challenged the reputation, intelligence, honesty, or authority of any of the posters here. At most I rendered snide responses to ad-hominem attacks against my reputation, intelligence, honesty, and authority.

If we can now both agree that we have worthy CVs, perhaps we can have a reasoned debate about issues instead of an ad-hominem pecker-check.

> My point of view is also that of an application developer, because that
> is what the vast majority of my career has been. However I have
> been quite impressed with the achievements of the field of data
> management, and have worked hard to educate myself in it.

As well you should! As have I.

> I have not noticed the same level of attempting to destroy
> and belittle the achivements of the other side coming from
> the data management camp as I have from the application
> developer camp. (Although I will grant you it occurs.)

I don't know much about that. If I look at this thread what I see is several people flinging insults and derision instead of arguments. I find il-manners instead of reasoned discussion. And as far as I can tell, none of that negative and insubstantial flaming has come from the application developer side. That's not to say that I haven't seen flame-wars between app developers, believe me I have. But they aren't evident in this thread.

For what it's worth I don't think either side has better manners than the other. I wish the manners of all posters could be better. But the last twenty years of involvement on newsgroups has convinced me that flame-wars and insults are the norm, and reasoned debate the exception.  A shame, really.

> I think
> it may have to do with the fact that the dbms people have
> always had to work with application developers, while many
> of the application developers have only recently had to start
> working with the dbms camp.

I don't understand that argument. From my point of view the two have been together (and at odds) for the last two decades.

Robert C. Martin (Uncle Bob)  | email:
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Received on Fri Jun 02 2006 - 08:30:27 CEST

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