Re: THe OverRelational Manifesto (ORM)

Bob Badour wrote:
> JOG wrote:
>
> > Bob Badour wrote:
> >
> >>JOG wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>paul c wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Marshall Spight wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>...
> >>>>>I still don't like name-calling, though. I still think it's
> >>>>>intellectually
> >>>>>unnecessary, and I still think ad-hominem reasoning is
> >>>>>logically invalid.
> >>>>>...
> >>>>
> >>>>A grand comparison compared to narrow db interests I'll admit, but WWII,
> >>>>at least part of it, might not have happened if Neville Chamberlain had
> >>>>been into ad-hominem logic instead of religious politeness. [snip]
> >>>
> >>>This is a ludicrous over-simplification.
> >>
> >>The german military command were ready to cut Hitler's throat when he
> >>re-occupied the Rheinland. They were simply waiting for France and
> >>England to present a credible threat in response to Hitler's foolish
> >>provocation. France and England were too polite to respond.
> >
> > To think that England and France did nothing merely because they were
> > being 'polite' can only be described as ignorance (or disregard) of the
> > complexities of the situation - France's general election, Britain's
> > socio-economic situation, their political relationships with USSR, etc.
> > ad infinitum. I defy you to find me any reputable historian who will
> > state that Hitler's entry into the demilitarized zone of the Rhineland
> > (hardly the first of his repudiations of the Versaille Treaty) and the
> > terrible mistake of not responding to it was solely down to
> > 'politeness' or perhaps being too busy drinking earl grey tea?
> >
> > Honestly Bob, as an an analogy of how to respond to posters like neo
> > this is way off. I have a great deal of respect of your knowledge of
> > database theory - why don't we stick to that on c.d.t.
>
> With all due respect, the root cause of their failure was a legacy of
> pacifism and self loathing stemming from the stench and horror of no
> man's land 1914-18. That stench and horror were themselves the product
> of pig-headed stupidity on the part of the military leaders who refused
> to accept the abject strategic failure of 19th century tactics and
> command structures in the face of 20th century weaponry.

Agreed.

>
> That pacifism and self loathing continue to tear at the fabric of
> western civilisation today. It was reinforced when America lost its
> half-assed war in Viet Nam, and it is being reinforced by the half-assed
> war Bush and Rummy lost three years ago in Iraq.

Agreed.

>
> All the things you point to are nothing more than excuses. Functioning
> democracies do not put their sovereignty and national defense on hold
> for general elections. Britain's socio-economic situation was orders of
> magnitude better than Germany's at that time.

Agreed they are all dire reasons, but they were contributory to the appalling decisions made. Of equal importance was the fact that Germany's economy was decimated to the point its inhabitants would blindly follow (to their deaths) any nut who would show them a glimmer of hope out of poverty and humiliation.

>
> All France and Englad had to do was show up to the dance. The German
> generals, who thought Hitler was nuts and a dangerous loose cannon, were
> ready to take it from there. By failing to meet the very minimum
> requirements of the Hobbesian justification for their existence, the
> governments of France and England transformed a nearly dead lunatic into
> an unassailable national hero.

Agreed. But with that you complete my argument - not once in your post, a far more agreeable description of the terrible state of affairs at the time, do you mention 'politeness', and rightly so. This is the only point I made objection too.

> Their 'pacifism' led directly to the wholesale slaughter of millions of
> people. I fear the current pacifism and cultural self loathing will lead
> to a slaughter just as horrible.
>

I have offered no viewpoint on this whatsoever. I absolutely respect your opinion on it (and in fact I share the same fear), but it is wildly OT Bob.

> Marshall's religious opposition to certain words is symptomatic of that
> dangerous legacy.

I still don't think Marshall's personal distaste for a certain style of posting in a database forum, really has much to do with the second world war. Received on Fri Apr 21 2006 - 17:23:27 CEST