Re: Just one more anecdote

Marshall Spight wrote:
> dawn wrote:
> > Marshall Spight wrote:
<snip>
> That's kind of odd, because I see anger and (modest amounts of)
> bitterness as entirely normal parts of the human condition,

perhaps normal, but not good triggers for this type of dialog

> whereas
> ignorance and stupidity are studiously to be avoided.

You may have gotten different societal messages than I. I often am ignorant (think how much there is to know!), but when I'm not, I sometimes fake it :-)

<snip>
> Well, you certainly have an agenda, a theme, a motif even. So do
> most people here. Pretty much everyone here does. Neo's got his
> thing with dynamic structure; I'm into the algebra and language
> design stuff, Jan likes the XML-family and query optimization,
> Mikito likes the math, etc. etc. Remember BB? He had a motif;
> it was "you suck." (For arbitrary values of "you.")
>
> Your recurring theme is limitations of SQL and the RM, and how
> more flexibility has an advantage in change management. Oh, and
> also the "how humans think" thing.
>
> So, like, own it.

You got it.

<snip>
> > > Point David.
> >
> > Yup, and for figuring out how to push my buttons
>
> Ahem. Well, perhaps his remark strayed into that territory.
> But then, I know this other person, who I still like and
> respect, and she goes to this one newsgroup that's mostly
> full of SQL/RM people and likes to talk about how SQL has
> all these problems and the RM should be dismantled and replaced
> with something altogether different.

What balls!
(I might not say that out loud, just write it for anyone in the world to read, go figure)

I guess I trip some collective database-related buttons, but I don't think to individualize it, other than an occasional flippant remark, which I suspect was the case with the axe.

A bit more on topic, I'm sensing a switch since I started here in that the RM was the king of the hill and anything else had to go on the offense to make any dent, while now in the industry at large, there is much more acceptance of non-SQL-DBMS approaches, it seems. Since I am in favor of set operators even if not exclusively, and normalization based on functional dependencies, I might just have to start defending the RM, although likely not needed in this forum, eh?

> Now, I don't think she's trolling or anything; she clearly
> believes the positions she puts forward. But I've seen her
> long enough to know that she knows just what she's doing when
> she drops one of her real zingers in there. Why, just the
> other day she casually referred to a project moving to a
> SQL database as "downgrading."

And I see now that my parenthetical joke-ish was what David commented on as claiming something as fact that had not been proven. If I had understood that, I wouldn't have been perplexed.

I put comments like that in to keep from being too dull, to trip those collective buttons, and also because it helps some personality types stay safe with their RM theories because they can write me off altogether as clearly either stupid or ignorant.

> Okay, so she was trying to push some buttons. Big deal!
> She's still informed, thoughtful, (mostly) articulate, and
> well within polite society. Anyone who meets those criteria
> (which precludes the "you suck" theme, by the way) is okay
> in my book.

That was really sweet. Thanks and back at you.
>
> > > Hurray! Everyone loses!
> >
> > You mean wins, right?
>
> If you'd seen how my last couple of days have been, you'd
> see why I've kinda got a "lose-lose" sort of vibe going.

I hear you -- after a very difficult week, I'm determined to have a good weekend and wish the same for you and everyone else.

> > I completely agree. The full reasons for anything in history are
> > unknowable, but we can speculate and discuss.
>
> Agreed. That's the fun of newsgroups!
>
> > Yes, and a dialog is good if you want to find more pieces of the
> > puzzle.
>
> Viva la dialog! At the end you either change your mind or you
> learn that much better why you think what you think. Either
> outcome is excellent.

hear! hear! --dawn

> Marshall
Received on Fri Jul 29 2005 - 17:38:13 CEST