Path: dp-news.maxwell.syr.edu!spool.maxwell.syr.edu!drn.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.netins.net!not-for-mail From: "Dawn M. Wolthuis" Newsgroups: comp.databases.theory Subject: Re: Can we solve this -- NFNF and non-1NF at Loggerheads Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:33:03 -0600 Organization: netINS InterNetNews site Lines: 57 Message-ID: References: <9LCdna8B3LW2VJjfRVn-rg@pipex.net> <36mrv7F52lmo2U1@individual.net> <86mzuhd51g.fsf@athene.hamartun.priv.no> <1107724046.897720.107260@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <42076d22$0$7932$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net> <1107784544.498876.251700@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4207a870$0$47472$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net> <1107803406.581986.297810@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1107807726.330299.215610@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1107839360.930438.77350@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> <1107888779.257397.229830@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.120.93.7 X-Trace: news.netins.net 1107905596 12372 199.120.93.7 (8 Feb 2005 23:33:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@netins.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 23:33:16 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Xref: dp-news.maxwell.syr.edu comp.databases.theory:29857 wrote in message news:1107888779.257397.229830@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com... > David Cressey wrote: >> >> Eventually, Datatrieve was extended to work with data in databases > like VAX >> DBMS, VAX RDB/VMS, and through the SNA gateway, on data residing on > an IBM >> mainframe. >> >> Unfortunately, Datatrieve got a horrible reputaion for resource > wasting >> among "real programmers". Some of that was deserved. But on > balance, I'd >> say that the real programmers misunderestimated Datatrieve very > badly. It >> was no substitute for a real DBMS, but it sure was handy! >> > > I think we have a mind-body problem here. We are thinking of the > DB and app. environment separately when only they together can create > an application. Yes -- agreed! > Many 4GL languages were very popular and successful (among others > Telon comes to mind), > because they were built with the whole environment in mind. SQL-DMBSes > overtook them and we lost the tight integration between DBMS and > application. It did make sense to loosely couple database services and application code to some extent, but lines were/are not usually drawn in the most helpful ways. > SQL-DBMSes are app. environment neutral, which is of course a good > thing, but > we are losing in productivity. Agreed. > In my opinion J2EE has set us back 20 > years. More agreement from me on that, although I'm still hopeful that Java can be part of a solution to get us back to flexible, maintainable, scalable, reliable, secure, and productive application development even with a distributed platform (compared to a single-server-centric model). EJB containers are not what will get us there, however (I'm about to try out Java Server Faces with tomcat, using NetBeans 4.1 -- we shall see ...) Cheers! --dawn > regards, > Lauri Pieatrinen >