# Re: Pizza Example

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 12:21:02 -0500

Message-ID: <c51das$u$1_at_news.netins.net>

"Tony" <andrewst_at_onetel.net.uk> wrote in message
news:c0e3f26e.0404070845.3b10639_at_posting.google.com...

*> "Eric Kaun" <ekaun_at_yahoo.com> wrote in message
*

news:<hARcc.51781$ca7.11809_at_newssvr16.news.prodigy.com>...

> > "Anthony W. Youngman" <wol_at_thewolery.demon.co.uk> wrote in message

*> > news:j4m$VcBg5zcAFwMZ_at_thewolery.demon.co.uk...
**> > > The problem I see with relational, is that it does not cope with -
**> > > indeed, denies the existence of - emergent complexity.
**> >
**> > I'll address the specific example below, but what does this mean in
*

general?

*>
*

> I have learnt from past experience that Wol likes to throw in

*> irrelevant but important-sounding scientific concepts from time to
**> time. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Priciple comes up quite often, along
**> with Godel's Incompleteness Theorem and of course Relativity v.
**> Newton! The relational model is deemed wanting because it fails to
**> take these into account, though it is far from clear how MV or
**> anything else does other, nor why they should.
**>
**> It's best to try to ignore these digressions, but I usually fail to do
**> so...
*

I tend to agree, although I have learned that Wol has a point even if obscured by his seeming lack of interest in or respect for mathematical models. I agree with him wholeheartedly that a model is a model -- just that, no more. Pointing out both flaws and usefulness in particular models is helpful. Thinking all mathematical models are hogwash is not, however. I don't need to emperically determine that 1000 + 1000 = 2000 because I have a model, a mathematical theory, that starts with some axioms and builds on that and that convinces me, without any emperical data, that if I have 1000 objects and add in another 1000 objects, then I will have 2000.

So in spite of the shared appreciation that I have for the underdocumented PICK "model" (loose use of the term in this case) along with Wol, he and I have had this mathematics vs science discussion before in other forums. If we have a mathematical model that is useful AND we have some emperical data to back up the usefulness of the model, then that would be great. I think "language" belongs in there somewhere too, but not sure exactly where.

But if anyone else does, I'm interested. --dawn Received on Wed Apr 07 2004 - 19:21:02 CEST