Re: Internet Business Logic

"Bob Badour" <bbadour_at_golden.net> wrote in message news:<_k6Oa.381$Pw1.54119549_at_mantis.golden.net>...
> "Adrian Walker" <adrianw_at_snet.net> wrote in message
> news:96372229.0307061651.28f1ae6f_at_posting.google.com...
> > "Bob Badour" <bbadour_at_golden.net> wrote in message
> news:<C4ENa.336$N44.42547245_at_mantis.golden.net>...
> > > "Adrian Walker" <adrianw_at_snet.net> wrote in message
> > > news:96372229.0307050718.5886218c_at_posting.google.com...
> > > > We are seeking comments please about a service and system called
> > > > Internet Business Logic. Experimental use of the system is free.
> > > >
> > > > The system supports the writing and running of applications in the
> > > > form of business rules (which one can think of as generalized Use
> > > > Cases), written in English, French, German, etc. The author- and
> > > > user-interface is an ordinary Web browser.
> > >
> > > Adrian,
> > >
> > > While I am all for making things more declarative and accessible to
> > > non-expert users, the samples you gave on your website do not look like
> the
> > > english spoken or written by human beings. Every attempt to allow users
> to
> > > program in "english" has made things more difficult and not easier--just
> > > look at COBOL or ABAP. What makes you think IBL will be any different?
> > >
> > > I suggest that computing requires formalism (at some level), and humans
> will
> > > understand the system better if the system exposes that formalism
> directly.
> > >
> > >
> > Bob,
> >
> > Thanks for taking the time to comment on the system.
> >
> > There is of course a formalism about how to write the rules in
> > Internet Business Logic. It's fairly nonintrusive, but, as you
> > pointed out, the English does not flow as freely as it might.
> > However, if you listen in on help desk conversations for a complex
> > application, you will find that much time is spent bridging the gap
> > between English common sense and a programming language.
>
> I have participated in help desk conversations on both sides of the
> conversation. Neither upper/lower case nor embedded spaces have significance
> to some users, but none of those users had any interest in writing their own
> programs or modelling their own data. Familiar sounding operators can cause
> more confusion than they solve by giving users a false sense of
> comprehension.
>
> Claims about usability without measurements to back them are meaningless.
> Now that you have a system that implements IBL, I think it is time to
> measure usability. Soliciting comments won't get you any meaningful
> usability data.
>
>
> > > > When an application is run, the system can optionally automatically
> > > > generate and run SQL queries and transactions over Oracle and other
> > > > networked databases.
> > > >
> > > > The system generates explanations of results, on demand, as
> > > > hypertexted English.
> > > >
> > > > One can get an explanation, before a transaction is committed, of what
> > > > will be done and why.
> > > >
> > > > The system is based on about twenty years of mathematical and software
> > > > engineering research, some of which is published in refereed journals
> > > > and conferences.
> > > >
> > > > To run the system, please point Netscape 7 or Mozilla to
> > > >
> > > > www.reengineeringllc.com
> > > >
> > > > You will see links to a presentation, tutorials, and so on. Then,
> > > > click on
> > > >
> > > > Internet Business Logic
> > > >
> > > > then on the GO button to enter a demo .
> > > >
> > > > The demo includes examples in business case preparation, database
> > > > mining, billing, database security, and financial applications.
> > > >
> > > > There is also a simple example called NetworkedSQL1 that shows how the
> > > > system works with a SQL DBMS.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks in advance for your comments. -- Adrian Walker
> > >
> > > I did not have the patience to wait 10 hours for a new browser to
> download
> > > over my dialup connection, so please forgive me if I only looked at the
> > > samples etc. without running the demo.
> >
> > Bob,
> >
> > Sorry about the requirement for Netscape 7. We are pushing the
> > limits of what is possible with a modern browser -- using it
> > as a general application authoring and execution UI -- and so far
> > we have not found a way around some limitations of IE.
> >
> > If you are able to use the IBL from Netscape 7 some time,
> > you will see that the explanations are in fact in smoother English
> > than the general rules. Think of the help desk $$ that can be saved
> > over having to read, say, Java-SQL traces, and figure out
> > why the application logic is coming up with an unbelievable answer.
>
> I don't have a problem reading SQL traces, but I am not a casual business
> user. I would find the added verbiage a nuisance that just gets in the way
> of what I want to know.

Bob,

By the way, the Netscape downloader for Windows has a useful pause-resume feature. So, provided you are not being charged by the minute for your phone connection, an overnight download is feasible -- resumed on the following night if not complete. (Should take a lot less than 10 hours, though.)

Another plus for Netscape is that it works (the same!) on Windows and Linux, and possibly also on Mac. Of course I'd like to enable IE for the IBL, but the IE implementers seem to have placed some restrictions that are absent in Netscape.

About reading SQL traces... These can get very complex if you have things like nested queries, negation, and multiple queries stemming from recursion in the the (IBL) application. Reading the SQL, let alone its traces, is a job for a highly paid expert, who must then somehow translate his/her findings into business-level language to talk to the anxious customer. In the IBL, on the other hand, the customer can simply get a business-level English step-by-step explanation. Received on Wed Jul 09 2003 - 17:38:35 CEST