Re: Extending my question. Was: The relational model and relational algebra - why did SQL become the industry standard?

From: Daniel S. Guntermann <>
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 06:27:40 GMT
Message-ID: <w5l3a.2567$>

Ok. Thank you for the clarification. I realize the whole point of the discussion is that SQL does allow for bags in base, derived/intermediate tables....It probably is a very good thing to understand the side affects that occur with bag algebra since we probably use it more than we know, though I personally try to avoid it. As others have stated, that is probably why the Stanford trio address the issue explicitly.

  • Dan

"Jan Hidders" <> wrote in message
> D Guntermann wrote:
> >
> >"Jan Hidders" <> wrote in message
> >
> >> Lauri Pietarinen wrote:
> >> >
> >> >what is your take on Garcia-Molina, Ullman and Jennifer Widom
> >> >regarding their stand on duplicates?
> >> >
> >> >(see and cjddtdt2)
> >> >
> >[snipped for brevity]
> >>
> >> But how your algebra looks depends on how you
> >> answer question 2, because query optimization is the main raison d'etre
> >> the algebra, and there it is a completely different story. It can for
> >> example be more efficient to postpone duplicate elimination. If you
> >> have a bag algebra you cannot express this in your algebra.
> >
> >I'll try not to sound too ignorant, but I'm afraid I will anyway, as I
> >haven't had time to read the link to Mr. Date's comments yet.
> >
> >Why does query optimization have to expose bag algebra?


> I don't think I said it has to.
> >Can't structures be manipulated at a lower internal representation that
> >independent of a logical data model and logical manipulative aspects
> >relational model with relational algebra)? Isn't this the point of
> >ANSI-SPARC architecture?

> Yes, it can, and yes it is.

> >I wonder what the ramifications are on data independence if relations,
> >whether base, derived, or intermediate, are allowed to incorporate bags
> >order to accomodate optimization.

> With "intermediate results" I meant the intermediate results of the steps
> the query evaluation plan. These are usually not seen by the user.

> -- Jan Hidders

> Received on Sat Feb 15 2003 - 07:27:40 CET

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