Re: Where to find average salaries of Oracle programmers?

From: Jim Starwood <jstarwoo_at_haven.ios.com>
Date: 1995/06/11
Message-ID: <3re878$mka_at_ankh.iia.org>


Mahesh Vallampati (m0v5533_at_tam2000.tamu.edu) wrote:
: In article <3ra0pq$t57_at_ankh.iia.org>,
: Jim Starwood <jstarwoo_at_haven.ios.com> wrote:
: >Steve Cosner (stevec_at_zimmer.CSUFresno.EDU) wrote:
: >: In article <3qiaa2$r7b_at_mdnews.btv.ibm.com> rlampat_at_vnet.ibm.com writes:
: >: >In <18MAY199513581952_at_ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu>, oispeggy_at_ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) writes:
: >: >>Can anyone suggest where I can find a list of average salaries
: >: >>for Oracle programmer? Both DBAs and developers?

 <snip>

: >: >>My bosses are trying to give me a raise, but their bosses say they
: >: >>need proof that I am underpaid.
: >: >>
: >: > You might try to get a firm offer for more than
: >: > you currently make from a competitor. This has its
: >: > risks, but could pay off in the form of a larger paycheck!
: >: >
 

: >: I have seen that tried, but usually the response was "OK, good-bye and
: >: good luck!"
: >
: >That is exactly what happens in my shop. If you can't give me all you can
: >and are not satisfied with what I dole out, set up your own terms.
: >
: >And get the hell out of our way.
: >-------------------------------------------------------------------------
: >Jim Starwood I like a chromatic love affair...
: >jstarwoo_at_haven.ios.com one half-step at a time.
: >
: The Key word here is "firm" offer. I wouldnt ask to be paid higher if I didnt
: deserve it. I would of course ask for a raise if I had to face the prospect of
: being fired at the same time for it by having a resignation letter in my left
: pocket and a "firm" offer in my right pocket. There are two simple concepts
: here:
: No deal, Raw deal: Take Raw deal.
: Raw Deal, better deal: Take better deal.

Yes, a concept I agree with.

: I see that you wouldnt "dole" out extra bucks to retain a good employee. Try
: getting someone who knows Oracle or for that matter any valuable skills after
: you have asked your original employee to leave.

Actually, we _do_ pay rather well for people that perform and take chances on people that are honest enough to admit that the skillset that they possess _at this moment_ are not impacting in a real way, the profit motive or level of our business.

I look for effeciency <sp?> .

: You would end up paying more
: bucks that way. And the employee you will ask to leave for asking industry
: standard salaries is going to get better salary than what you are "doling"
: out.

More bucks ? This is a crapshoot, at best. I read your post completely and cannot tell if you've ever had to do a series of budgets that would keep the jobs of 6 project managers in play, along with their programmers and sometimes the "support" people.

Many times I have to think for my client MIS managers, who are depending on us for delivery -- they are often overwhelmed by the various technological issues (who isn't? There are many things I do not have a handle on)...I write the project whitepapers and proposals so they can transfer to their internal memoranda forms... I digress. We're not stupid. We _know_ what the standard ranges are. We will pay that. But we're flooded with resumes and I can basically pick and choose in 70 percent of my staffing needs. The next twenty percent I have to pay extra for. When I'm in a good mood and somebody needs a break and the project can absorb the "starter salary", I can give him/her a try. I got a break once, a long time ago... That last ten percent ? Maybe we don't get the project. Happens.

Of course, fully half of the resumes come from people with skills unmatched to the position we posted. They want to learn on my time and my customer's dime. Is it your position that I should pay commensurate to the calendar ? I'm not running your local government, sir. Or a school.  

: Of course the con side of this is the employee might get greedy. But everybody
: knows when to draw the line.

Yeah ? "Everybody" ? I constantly see people gripe about how little they paid (in comparison to others that have X years of DP experience, among other factors...) To tell you the truth, I have only seen greed manifested in the left/right pocket form that you described only twice in sixteen years. We keep overall costing/profit stats on teams (by trouble-ticket reports and applications/customers), and try to get a feel for who contributes and who doesn't. Can't look at each module; it would be rare if we needed to. If they're rainmakers that contribute in an above average way to MY pocket, they don't need to come to my office... the money is there in the bonus. Very good people are hard to find. I get a "lamer" once in a while. You should ask at a local jobshop about this phenomena...

To the orginal poster (Peggy?): Call Source/EDP.

: So if you want to show some bravado on the net
: do it somewhere else and for heaven sake's dont kid us.

I'm not sure I understand this sentence. This is real life. Bravado? I think that I'd get better satisfaction from b-s'ng a few clients that are amazed when I grab the data that they already have and show it to them in a way that supports whatever argument they are trying to make this week. I get a free lunch that way. From the 'Net I get nothing but information, trends, and problem solving. Display of bravado doesn't get many rewards anymore, less so in this forum.

You can continue to discuss this publicly, or post me email and I will address this "kid us" issue that you have with me. Your choice.

: I saw your previous postings on Powerbuilder vs Forms issue and we would all
: in this newsgroup appreciate it if you could tone down your "language" be
: it SQL or otherwise.

You speak for the many ? I have received mail on many of my posts. Last week I counted 2 that agreed with you. Another one that agreed with my points but not with my "otherwise" ;-) language. The 20-23 others were just as frustrated as I was.

We must be realistic, of course, and understand that this does not represent the population of newsgroup readers that side "with you" and felt it "useless","silly","too much trouble" to express their feelings to me or about me within the newsgroup.

Or the converse.

I assume that you understand the killfile concept. I would not feel put out if you used it against my posts. Anyone else that doesn't want the other side of a discussion (or the side I espouse) is hereby requested do to the same. <name=jstarwoo_at_haven.ios.com>

As for PB vs Forms, I just looked -- very little followup from Oracle marketing as seen from my newsserver. The overall viewpoints must be close to "reality" on both sides (or I am going to get run over bigtime by next Wednesday). If you have something to add, please do so there. Maybe you haven't had YOUR time or resources (read MONEY) wasted by any number of vendors on a six times a month basis telling me that "it should work" or "It won't work with that" or "you need to upgrade" (64 users) or whatever. In the meantime, the meter is running. And it's not just PB or Oracle. It's everyone. Some poor kid still a little wet behind the ears believing everything he reads rather than experiencing it himself and selling it to me or my clients. The vendor then passes us off to a guy that has only lab skills in troubleshooting and has us try solutions that this week (and every week)? "Fix this and we'll pay you". I still code because it's fun -- and I want to be a constructive resource for those people facing our customers on a daily basis. I might even be saving a quarter to a third of a single headcount by doing this. Not a good idea because the customer can't be led to believe that I'd be availble for product troubles... This is hard work, and often unenjoyable, but I don't feel like toning down my lifestyle to make hamburger-flipping income a viable alternative.

: Thanks // gee, for a mini-flame, that was rather gracious.
 

: PS: Jim, Just in case if you were wondering why a guy from .edu is discussing
: this stuff, I am moving to .com next month and I insisted on being paid
: Industry standard.

Well, I thought that the .edu part would explain your stance vis. a vis. PB/Forms ;-) As for salary, you know what ? As long as you performed at the "standard level", you should steadfastly hold your ground. You will get that, even at my place. Part of the "dole" <love that quoting>.

Salary is where we pay you for showing up. Compensation is where I take into account (using metrics that still are dubious) your experience, your educational background as it relates to my business, your political savvy, your technical prowess and your ability to deliver to my user's specification in the budget I've committed everyone to -- and reward/persuade/disincentify your tenure with our shop. It's "what have you done for me _lately_". There's a door over there -- a couple of people have used it. I've called a headhunter or two to get the nondesirables started on their way. Some have done better. My loss, temporarily (once, not so temporarily). I got over it. As programmers, we become accustomed to workarounds. As managers, we become accustomed to politics. As a business owner/partner, we become accustomed to adversity (and lawyers!).

Gee, I hope I'm not kidding y'all. "Yep, computerz iz fun" but my customers ultimately pay our bills. A lesson too many people learn the hard way.

Mahesh, I'm not that sure that we disagree on concepts here: Standard scale for Standard Workproduct. As an employer, I have a loose feel for the industry benchmarks, especially as it directly impacts us. If we bid too low for talent, we get no takers... I welcome your challenge even if you were _really_ from an .edu (and not on your way to somewhere else) If you're a student moving to the private sector, I just delivered the mini-mini-FAQ on compensation. If you're a technical in academic computing moving to the private sector, you'd be in high demand if it's systems, less so if it's development of applications in the majority of specialized business (mortgage/banking/common carrier/tax) that we handle.

And if you're an educator, well, good luck.


Jim Starwood                         I like a chromatic love affair...
jstarwoo_at_haven.ios.com                  one half-step at a time.

<did not intend that this post get THIS long. Usually the technical issues are the easiest ones.> ;-) Received on Sun Jun 11 1995 - 00:00:00 CEST

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