Re: americans vs. foreigners ( was : Oracle and Non-Green Card Indians )

There's no point arguing over this. I've said what I wanted to say, and so have you. If it makes you happy to think that you've won this argument, so be it. Good luck in finding your job.

Regards,
SAA --------------Original Post-------------

Subject: Re: americans vs. foreigners ( was : Oracle and Non-Green Card Indians )
From: smith_at_netcom.com ( David Smith at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 06:45:03 GMT
Message-ID: <smithD0oqr3.4uE_at_netcom.com>

Axx (axx_at_aol.com) wrote:
: Let me start by saying that this mail is not intended to flame anyone,
: these are my own observations, which are very consistent in most areas
 of
: the united states. It just pains me to see people getting worked up over
: immigration for the wrong reasons. I also realize that each person has a
: unique identity, regardless of race or religion. I also know that this
: newsgroup is the wrong place to discuss these issues, but I simply had
 to
: put my two cents in here.

Surely you would be saddened to see comments against non-citizens taking jobs
from American citizens, as you are a non-citizen who has done just that.

: I'm a green card holder, originally from india. I work for a software
: consulting firm in Texas, which has some multinational clients. We are
: aiming to be a top systems integrator firm in the next few years. Most
 of
: the times when we have a new opening for a HIGHLY QUALIFIED individual,
 we
: find that there are very few americans who apply for the post. The
: 'foreigners' that get hired are paid EXACTLY THE SAME salaries as their
: american counterparts, if not more, due to their high demand. When
 people
: start noticing that there are a large number of outsiders in the firm,
: they tend to start feeling insecure, and this is the root cause of the
: racist comments that follow.
 

: One other observation - most of the positions of database
 administrators,
: 24 hr. support personnel, and various other critical areas are filled
 by
: foreigners ( let us not narrow our focus to indians ). Why is this so ?
: Are americans not capable of handling demanding work ? Or is it that
 they
: do not want to ?

Yes, just like the farmer with a field full of illegal alien Mexicans, or the San Francisco sweat shop clothing mfg. with a shop full of illegal Chinese, you pay them EXACTLY THE SAME as you pay the Americans. Just so happens that you are paying a wage that only desperate foreigners want to accept. Were we to stop immigration, both legal, illegal, and H1 Visa loophole,
you would indeed hire Americans for every position in your country. You would
either pay them a wage they are willing to work for, or go out of business.

: Since we are a client oriented company, all people that are placed at
 the
: site have to undergo an interview with the customer, before they can be
: placed. Why do they clients who are mainly american, choose these
: foreigners ? Is it because they are charged less ? I don't think so. It
: has to do with qualifications, and the ability to think clearly, and to
 do
: whatever it takes to get the situation resolved ( also known as hard
 work
: ).

Then, we can add you to those arguing for the racial/cultural superiority of
the third world. Funny, you first state in all capitals, that the foreigners
are paid the same or more, and now you are fudging on that.

: I am not saying that all americans are dumb and all foreigners are
 smart.
: Intelligence has nothing to do with nationality. My project team
 consists
: of five other americans, and we work excellently as a team. If I ever
: opened up a company, I would hire the most qualified individual,
: regardless of race, who would help my company become more successful,
: rather that some unmotivated individual who is interested in a 9 to 5
 job
: five days a week.

There are 1.2 billion Chinese, 900 million Indians, and countless millions in Latin America, Africa and Asia, and the ex-Soviet Union. We have identified
over the weekend, 5.5 million, who are smarter, and harder workers than you.
The jig is up rhetorical one, you are being replaced, don't let the door hit
you on the way out.

: How does the author of the original post define american ? Is he a
 native
: american red indian ? Or did his ancestors immigrate to the US a few
: decades ago ? When I become a citizen tomorrow, will I still be viewed
 as
: an immigrant ? Or do I become 'as american as apple pie '? What about
: naturalized citizens from europe ? Was the original post racist, based
 on
: color of skin ? Would the author have posted the same letter, if all the
: indians at Oracle were british with white skins instead ?

American = American citizen. That leaves out you. Feel free to return to India, the country full of people just like you, who Oracle feels are racially superior (or they quite possibly work for less). You know, the wretched country you fled.

: I have lived in a couple of countries outside the united states, and let
: me say here that the key to survival in the years to come is to take a
: more global view of the world market. This is what most american
 companies
: are doing today. I would not like to see the US lose economically,
 because
: they focus so much on what is within, and are not even aware of the
: developments taking place in the outside world. I am eventually going to
: be an american citizen, and I fully support that local qualified people
: should be given first preference for jobs, before looking elsewhere. It
: should also be clear that just because an individual has graduated out
 of
: college, it does not become their birth right for companies to give him
 or
: her a job. People don't owe anyone anything.

Quite astonishingly, only a handful of the world's global competitors, including
those Asian tigers, Japan, etc., the very countries that are kicking international ass; don't take that "global view", that one needs to take in
the third world masses who desperately want to flee their wretched countries,
in order to compete. Kind of odd that immigration is such a wonderful panacea to the java sippers, and yet only the English speaking nations practice it, and they are all losing market share. Ever hear of the U.S. trade deficit. It's in the billions, to countries that have NO IMMIGRATION.
: Work hard, remain competitive, keep yourself updated on what is
 happening
: in the industry today, and you will become extremely successful in your
: career, and will never have to feel sorry for yourself and resort to
: attacking other people because you see them getting ahead of you in
 life.
: Racism and immigration are sensitive issues, and instigating unbiased
: people ( because an individual has nothing better to do ) will only
 breed
: more hatred, and will not resolve anything. Keep another thing in mind -
: it is not helpful to one's career to complain about things - provide
: solutions to other's problems, and you will be the most respected person
: around.

Sorry, you haven't worked hard enough. Their are 400 thousand Chinese who will show up next week, and they all are better than you. Find another job,
and consider taking classes at night.

: I have been in the same contracting position sitting in the same chair
 for
: the last two years, and this is what I have been doing. I can assure you
: that I did not just make this up.
 

: 1) Sybase Database administrator.
: 2) PL/SQL programmer and pseudo Oracle Database administrator.
: 3) data migration coordinator for north america.
: 4) Data modeller LBMS Systems Engineer, ERwin, soon moving to
 accelerator.
: 5) SAP R/3 - ABAP programmer ( curently attending training ).
: 6) Misc Windows Products Installation, Evaluation, Testing and
: co-ordinating implementation.
: 7) Misc hardware and software upgrades for the user community
: 8) Used to provide 7x24hr beeper support.

This is hardly Superman's job history.

: I am interested in knowing the qualifications and experience of the
: original poster. I am connected with people around the US, maybe I can
: help him find a job with a company that he will be interested in ( no
: kidding ).

The pro-Massive hiring of non-Green Card H1 Visa loophole gang has already

proclaimed that I don't have a job, and that I can't find one. It's called an ad hominem attack, and shows the bankruptcy of the arguer. Don't make the
same mistake.

: Regards,
: Sanjay Akhare
 

: -------Original Post Follows----------
 

: Subject: Oracle and Non-Green Card Indians
: From: smith_at_netcom.com ( David Smith at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo)
: Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 09:45:52 GMT
: Message-ID: <smithCz1psH.ByA_at_netcom.com>
 

: Oracle Corporation, currently hires enourmous amounts of Indians, who do
: not even have a green card, but have come to the U.S. under some
: ridiculous law that permits it on the basis that they have critical
 skills
: (Computer Science) that cannot be met by Americans. You will find them,
: not only programming or what have you, but also manning the technical
: support lines in large numbers. Seems odd to put recent immigrants on a
: phone support line, but Oracle knows that a desperate immigrant fleeing
: his impoverished country, will work for less, and they will save a few
: pennies. Sadly, there is such a surplus of Americans looking for
 Computer
: Science type jobs, that a 2 or 3 line classified ad looking for a
: programmer or network person etc., will draw 200 resumes in a week, and
 a
: large amount of those being from Computer Science graduates who have
 been
: unable to land their first job. Is is morally right to allow Oracle to
: save a few bucks while Americans with Computer Science degrees are
: unemployed. Would the average American Computer Science graduate really
 be
: unable to man Oracle's tech support phones? Would they be worse at it?
: Are the Indians racially superior? I ask you Oracle advocates of the
: world.

• Headers ----------------------- Newsgroups: comp.databases.oracle Path: newsbf01.news.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!swiss.ans.net!howland.reston.a ns.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!smit h From: smith_at_netcom.com ( David Smith at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo) Subject: Re: americans vs. foreigners ( was : Oracle and Non-Green Card Indians ) Message-ID: <smithD0oqr3.4uE_at_netcom.com> Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <3bqf86$2tk_at_newsbf01.news.aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 06:45:03 GMT Lines: 168